New - Trouble with my water quality.

[Freshie In Disguise]

Hello. My name is Lindsey, and I just started a freshwater tank. I've had freshwater tanks in the past, but it's been years, and before, it seemed like we were blessed in that nothing ever went wrong!

All we ever had before was a 15 gallon (approx.) tank with a bubbler and basic decorations. The water was always crystal clear. We had a few goldfish, tetras, plecos, and other basic freshwater fish. When our last pleco died, the tank got really scuzzy and it was so hard to keep it clean that we ended up giving our fish away to friends and relatives, and using the tank for gerbils.

I recently had some extra cash and fell in love with a calico fantail at Walmart. I bought a smallish tank and a filter and ended up going home with two fantails, one calico and one red/gold. I had already had some freshwater snails and I put them in the tank to keep it clean. Clearly I have a spending problem, because when I went back to Walmart the next day, I came home with a black moor who wasn't "all there" when I bought him. He subsequently died, and I went back. There were no more black moors (the reason I had originally ended up with that one) so I bought two fiddler crabs, a pleco, and a blue/green betta, who is my special sweet girl.
With how hard those little crabs work at shoving things in their mouths, I am astounded at the cloudiness of the water. Since we have set up the tank (less than a week ago), we have done two complete water changes, scrubbed all the decorations, and inspected the filter. Nothing helps. I've looked into EcoBio products, but was a bit turned off by the price, and I've also contacted the DNR on the legalness of acquiring one adult zebra mussel (waiting for them to get back to me). I'm just not sure what to do. I know that goldfish can be messy and sensitive to filthy water, and I also know that the current in the tank from the filter makes feeding VERY difficult, because the fresh water coming out of the filter forces the food down into the water where it gets lodged in gravel and decorations and further adds to the problem. :?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Lindsey

 

[melosu58]

Moving this to the FW getting started forum. Welcome to AA.

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

Thank you. I'm not entirely sure where things go just yet.

 

[mfdrookie516]

Welcome to AA

I think alot of what you're describing in the cloudy water is what we call a bacteria bloom. It doesnt sound like you cycled the tank since from what i read you bought the tank and fish at the same time. Read the links in my signature on cycling with fish and the nitrogen cycle, that should clear things up.

It also sounds like you're entirely overstocked. You said smallish tank, how many gallons is it? Unless its 55g or so, i'd rehome a bunch of the fish. For the most part, 20g for the first goldfish, 10 more for each (just a basic thing of course, not set in stone). Also, fiddler crabs require the ability to get out of the water and 'dry off'... do you have a place for them to do so? What kind of pleco did you get? Common plecos create a ton of waste and really end up doing more harm than good, imo, in an aquarium. They belong in ponds or huge tanks imo.

Sorry for so much info and bad news, hope this helps you some though

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

Being completely uneducated, I did not cycle the tank. The first fish were in the tank before the filter was.

If what you say is true, I am completely overstocked, which is very sad considering that I have gotten very attatched to all of my fish, with the exception of the snails who I can't tell apart. The tank is about 10-12 gallons. Which fish can I keep, and which ones have to go? The crabs have a place to get out and sit on the top of the filter, but they never do, unless they are doing it at night when I am asleep. They spend most of their time inside of their little castle eating bits of stuff. I'm not sure what kind Marli is. They called her a plecostomus and she came from Walmart. She's the basic dark brown fish commonly advertised as a "bottomfeeder" at petshops.

And for the record, the betta lives in a large bowl and not in the tank. She ate one of my snails and was subsequently removed.

 

[JustOneMore20]

Welcome to AA!

Sorry that you are getting bad news here, but I hope that it will help you in the future.

Honestly, the goldfish need a new home and the pleco as well. All of these will get much too big for a 10-12 gallon tank and having all these together is the reason that the tank is getting polluted so soon, along with the cycle. Goldfish are serious poopers, as are plecos....they are very wasteful (compared to other fish) and need a large volume of water as well as excellent filtration.If you could upgrade your tank, you could keep the Goldfish. A tank around 40-50 gallons would be the minimum for keeping all 3. I suggest returning the Pleco because they can get over a foot long and will outgrow most tanks.

I would do 1 of 2 things....leave the crabs in the tank to themselves (and maybe get a few more?). I have no knowledge of the needs of these crabs, so I'm not sure how many you could have in the tank. I'll try to get you some links though. If you decide not to give the crabs the tank, then give it to the Betta and add a school of peaceful tetras (after the tank is cycled) and trade in the crabs or get them another tank. That way you have a bit of variety in the tank.

We all start somewhere and many of us were in a similar position when we started this hobby. Please don't let it discourage you from keeping fish. We're here to help.


edit: Check out the links in Jonathan's signature (mfdrookie) ^ for some info on the nitrogen cycle and cycling with fish.

Fiddler crab links: http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/rarespecies/a/fiddlercrabs.htm, http://www.helium.com/items/364900-how-to-care-for-a-fiddler-crab, http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/231677/exotic_pets_how_to_care_for_fiddler.html?cat=53

It seems that the crabs actually need brackish water which is freshwater with a bit of salt (but not quite saltwater).

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

This is so much so fast. It's pathetic that I've gotten so attatched to them all already. They have names and everything. I don't know what I'm going to do.

I'm aware that the goldfish and pleco will get much larger, but from what I understand it will take a few years, and by then I'd hoped to get a different tank anyways and expand my variety a little bit... As for returning the fish, they came from Walmart and I'm sure that's out of the question. If I can't find them new homes, I will simply have to get a larger tank. The trouble is, I don't think 1% of the population knows what people here do. Finding them a home any better than mine will be difficult in my area. I had never heard in my entire life that goldfish needed such intense care. I had always thought they were like bettas, and indeed have kept them as such in the past. My oldest lived six years. Her name was Daphne and she ate from my finger and lived in a fishbowl. She would have lived longer if it hadn't been for my brother's rotten kitten. My oldest betta only lived three years. His name was Blaze and he was a centerpiece in the kitchen. My mom said he was creepy because he liked to watch her eat dinner.

The notice on the crab tank at Walmart stated that the crabs do not tolerate salt in the water. Why would they tell their customers something like that? This means I need the crabs seperate from the other fish, because the other fish need fresh water. The crabs also seem extremely social. I have two males and though they "argue" occasionally, they are always side by side. I think they would benefit from more friends, but not until I have the other fish elsewhere. The snails are going back to the koi pond from where they came. Their eggs are getting in the filter anyways.

At this point I just don't know what to do. The goldfish will either die in my tank or die in some little kid's fishbowl. Ideally, I would like to get another large tank, 50 gallons or so, and put the fish in there, and then add some crabs to my little tank. Money is an object though, and a tank that large would probably need a monster of a filter.

What an awful day. I can't imagine how hard people will laugh when they see me giving a tearful goodbye to my fish.

 

[TCool]

My oldest lived six years.

To try to put this in perspective for you, I've heard of some goldfish living up to 30 years.

My oldest betta only lived three years.

From everything I've read that is actually good since most Bettas only make it around 2.

At this point I just don't know what to do. The goldfish will either die in my tank or die in some little kid's fishbowl. Ideally, I would like to get another large tank, 50 gallons or so, and put the fish in there, and then add some crabs to my little tank. Money is an object though, and a tank that large would probably need a monster of a filter.

I picked up my 55 gallon about 5 years ago for about $150. It came with a heater, filter, hood, and lamps. The stand cost me $50, and I picked up another HOB filter for around $50. So, don't count my fish or my recent upgrades (about $300 worth) and I got a decent set up for about $250.

I still see this same set up at Walmart, so I'm sure it's around you too. Then to save money you could pick up some cheap pool filter sand for substrate, and go search your local wilderness for rocks to add as decorations (although do some reading up about that before you do it). Also, I think hornwort makes a good plant to get for fish tanks because it doesn't need a whole lot of care and grows like mad. You can pick up one clump for a couple bucks and when it grows really big you trim it and plant what you trimmed elsewhere in the tank until you are satisfied.

I know $250 is still a decent chunk of change, but a 55 gal setup can be done without spending outrageous amounts of money. One quick way to save money in this hobby is to stop listening to the people at the pet store, because they'll tell you that you need to buy all this crap when you really don't. Believe me, I lost tons of money doing that until I came here. I used to be one of those suckers that would constantly be buying new filter cartridges because they told me I had to replace them. Glad I kicked that expensive habit.

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

Well, like I said, the goldfish was killed by a cat. It shouldn't have been in my bedroom. It wasn't anything I did.

When I add "wild" things to my pet habitats, it's usually quite a process. I boil them for atleast ten minutes, or scald them if they are too big, then I stick them in the freezer overnight. In the morning, I bake them at 300 degrees for ten minutes or until something goes wrong. If anyone ever tells you that a hollow log won't spontaneously combust, they are full of it. It's not something I recommend unless you can stay in the room while they are baking.

I do all of this nonsense to avoid giving my critters parasites. I'm also in a farming/hunting area, and who knows what sorts of goodies have been sprayed about on the rocks and sticks.

The tank itself is what I am most worried about. I will need a tank, a filter, a bubbler (I can't spell "airator"), and more gravel or sand. I'm now really worried about my crabs. There are so many websites that say they are experts that I just don't know who to believe. I want to believe the other guys because they are telling me what I want to hear; that all of my fish will be just fine. But the evidence just isn't supporting that claim. The water is cloudy and it smells, and I have incompatible animals together.

I can't get rid of Ruthie, and fortunately I won't have to. She seems happy in her bowl, and she has an awesome appetite. I don't want to get rid of Eugene and Pinchy, and they sound like they'll be the easiest ones to provide for. It sounds silly but I think I will miss Marli the most. She's the least "flashy" of all of them, but something about her is just special to me. I don't know how I will ever make sure that Bart and Hugo get a good home.

My very next move is to buy some of these EcoBio pebbles just as a temporary fix. They are so expensive. I hope they work, just until I get paid.

I might move the crabs into my old hermit crab setup and just make them a big sand mountain in the middle of the bin with water all around. Either that or I will steal one of the hideouts from the fishtank and set it in the middle of the water for them. Can they handle hermit crab salt? It's just halite dust. It's all I have. Also I notice that they like hermit crab food. That's a plus because the stuff is almost expired and needs to get eaten up.

If anyone has any other tips, I am desperate.

 

[Greenmaster]

Do some water changes and maybe get some ammonia neutralizer. Just to make sure your fish don't die in the mean time.

 

[jsoong]

Sorry to hear about all your troubles .... This hobby can get out of hand really quick. It is not unusual for someone to start with a $1 goldfish & ending up with a dozen tanks & a pond!

Back to some practical advice:
Your mix of fish & inverts are not entirely compatible. To house them all, you will need at least 2 big tanks.
Although 2 fancy goldfish can live in a 12 gal until they are bigger, you don't have as much time as you think. Properly cared for, it will be 6-8 months before they outgrow your tank. And you won't have that much time with all the other critters around.
A Walmart pleco is likely a common. They get to be 12" or more & need a 100 gal setup or a pond. Also, common pleco will eat your other fish (including the fancy golds) when they get big ..... so really, I think you should seriously think of rehoming the pleco.

In the short term, You will need to do a lot of pwc's. The tank is cycling and the accumulating toxins will likely cause the demise of most of the critters. Read MfdRookies link on cycling with fish, and start doing daily large (50%) pwc's. That should improve water quality, at least temporarily. Once the tank is cycled, you might be able to cut down a bit on the pwc's, but prob not by much.

Next you need to decide what to do with all the fish. Some options:
1. Get a goldfish only tank - get at least a 40 gal, and bigger is better. Try looking at Craig's list & the classified. You might be lucky & get a used setup for cheap. <My first setup was a 70 gal used, complete for $100.> You can keep the snails with the goldfish. The pleco may stay until it gets to be 3 or 4". At that point, it must be removed. It is know to suck on the skin & kill fancy golds while they sleep. <Bigger plecos can just swallow the golds whole ....>
2. You can make the 12 a crab tank, or possible a betta tank, and return the goldies.
3. Return everything except the goldies, keep them in your existing setup. Do lots of pwc till the tank cycled then do at least weekly pwc's. As the fish grow increase pwc frequency. Eventually, you will end up doing daily pwc's and need a bigger tank. This may be 6 months to a year down the road ... depending on how big the fish are to start.
4. Get 4 tanks of varying sizes (may be 2 10's or 20's and a couple 80's+), maybe a pond down the road, and keep everyone in their optimal environment. <We call this MTS - multiple tank syndrome! >

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

Wait, so can I put Marli in a koi pond? Will she eat the koi too or just the goldfish? My gosh that's a heck of a temperature change though. And she's so little. They won't all gang up on her, will they? She can't be more than 2-3" long. Will bigger plecos eat smaller plecos? If not, she may have a future in the restaraunt business as an entertainer. I wonder why she hasn't attacked them yet. We used to have plecos and goldfish together all the time and nothing like that ever happened while we were watching. However, I remember seeing the plecos eating fish which were already dead. It's entirely possible that they killed them.

What it sounds like I'm going to have to do is to look for homes for Marli, Bart, and Hugo. I still don't know whether or not the crabs can live in a modified hermit crab environment. If they can, that would be ideal, because I could put Ruthie in the tank and get her a friend. I think the filter might be almost toast, because it's been working full capacity and the water is still cloudy. I overloaded the poor thing and I'll probably have to get a new one. Atleast it was only $20.

However, according to these people on this website, if I buy these EcoBio rocks, the water will look wonderful and I will hardly ever have to change it. Can't I just do that for now? I know the crab boys are going to have to come out and get a little salt, and I know Marli is going to have to take up residence elsewhere, but can the goldfish stay in the tank for a while with the EcoBio stones? It is going to take me forever to find them a home, and I will probably end up shipping them somewhere, because nobody here takes care of their goldfish that well.

I knew I should have just gotten ducklings.

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

And the guy from the DNR contacted me about zebra mussels.

The Minnesota DNR will not issue permits for the posession of zebra mussels to anyone other than Universities for research purposes. The reason for this is that the Universities are bound by law to quarantine not only the mussels, but everything that goes in or around their tank, including the water from the tank, which cannot be dumped down the drain.

But that ship had sailed when I found out my tank was overpopulated. I don't think it could handle one more creature, even a water-cleaning creature.

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

I just did a 60%+ partial water change.
I got the sink as clean as I possible could (scrubbed it with soap, and then several times without soap, then sprayed it like a lunatic, then rinsed it out for several minutes) and put my fish in there, except for the crabby boys, who are hiding somewhere (probably in the castle) but I'm certain they enjoyed a few seconds of fresh air. I don't know why they never leave that darn castle.
That sink is in my room with the aquarium, and all it is ever used for is watering pets. I know it may not be an ideal place for the fish, but it's the best I can do, and it's certainly better than nothing. After I refilled the tank, I fed the fish in the sink, and after they ate, I changed that water and put them back in, because they had pooped a whole bunch. During all of this, I left the tank filter on. My plan is to put the fish back in one by one, at whatever rate it appears the filter can handle. I don't know what else to do. I don't have any more money to spend at the moment, and it will be easier for me to work really hard to keep the water clean than to shell out hundreds of dollars on massive tanks and new-fangled equipment.

Did I mention that Walmart is three cities over, and all you can get in my tiny town is goldfish flakes?

I'm kind of stuck.
It would have saved me so much trouble if the people at Walmart had just known what they were doing, and told me how to take care of the fish properly. I wouldn't have gotten the fish I did, and I wouldn't be stuck in this predicament. What on earth would have happened if I hadn't found this site? Would they all be dead by now? Like the black moor?

 

[jsoong]

1. You don't need to take the fish out for a 60% pwc .... As long as they are still covered in water, you can leve them in the tank. It is less stress that way. <And if you have to do a REALLY big pwc in a pinch & the fish will be too crowded or left high & dry - just do 2 smaller ones! Eg two 50% pwc = one 75% pwc.>

2. Don't get any "water cleaning" critters! They might clean out the detritus, like uneaten food, etc., but will not remove ammonia or nitrites or nitrates, which is what you need to worry about at this point. The only thing that can effectively clean nitrogenous waste is plants. Although I really hesitate to suggest plants to you as that is really high maintenance! <There is no easy aquarium plants! No matter what anyone says - or maybe that is just because I don't have a green thumb! >

3. The pleco can go with the koi in a pond. Plecos will do fine with big common or comet goldfish. Basically, you just need to worry about the fancies with the pleco - as the fancies are slow swimmers & can't get away. Any single tailed gold or the kois will be fine. Also, the pleco will not be attacking the fish until it is bigger (like 6"+) so for now you are safe.

4. I am skeptical of any claims made by the "EcoBio" rocks, or whatever. There is no product on the market that can eliminate tank maintenance. I would save my mopney & stick with water changes.

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

Well, like I've said, I have been working *VERY* hard to keep the water clean, and I am willing to devote as much time as it takes. I have yet to encounter a plant which I cannot grow. I have never grown aquatic plants before, but I've done just about everything else. I do worry about the shelled critters eating them though, especially if snails do to water plants what slugs do to land plants.

In that case, I think Marli may become an entertainer. If she doesn't end up in the restaurant fishtank, I know they'd welcome her in the city koi pond. I worry about an indoor/outdoor transition, but I'm sure they know what they're doing.

The website for EcoBio is www.onedersave.com and the testimonials are all good. They even have pictures if you click on the fish on the side, where it says Environmental Applications, of what they have done to murky outdoor waters. I'm not a fan of this "water test" they have done, where all of the fish are swimming in filthy water, but if it really works like they say it does, it would be an excellent temporary fix for me, until I can get a bigger setup or rehome some fish. If it works, I will jump and click my heels. If it doesn't work, then I've learned something new. There's always a bright side if you look hard enough.

 

[mellawson]

My pleco was about 2 inches when I got him and he grew very quickly. He grew to about 5 inches in about 4 months and seemed very uncomfortable in my 30 gallon tank. He stopped growing so quickly (still growing just not as quickly) and I upgraded to a 75 gallon but now he is nearly a foot long and again his comfort is becoming an issue, I haven't seen him chase or attack any of my fish but he has never been with goldfish either. I just thought I would share my experience. I had no idea when I got him how big he would get and 4 yrs later its going to break my heart to give him away but I fear the time is near, if your going to re-home him do it before you get attached.

 

[jsoong]

Well, I read the EcoBio site. It seems they are selling rock with the nitrifying bacteria in it. <The nitrifying bacteria is what you are trying to grow during the cycling process, aka the bio-filter.>

In theory, this is good. But in practice, the nitrifying bacteria is not going to live long in a dry environment. There are other products on the market that claim to have live nitrifying bacteria or spores. The problem is that most find them not living up to the claims. Simply because the bacteria dies during storage & transit. The only live bacteria product that had been found to work (by members of this forum) is BioSpira. That is a live culture that requires refrigeration & careful handling.

Since most of us had experienced how easily the biofilter can be killed off in our own tanks, I shall remain skeptical. Not to say that there won't be other products that actually works like BioSpira ... but a totally dry live bacteria culture, I am doubtful .... but I can be convinced with real evidence.

For now, I still think frequent pwc is the way to go, until you figured out what to do with all the fish.

If you are considering plants, do head over to the plated forum & read the stickies. That will give you an idea of what you will be getting into. There will be 2 additional concerns in your case:
1. Goldies loves to eat plants ... so you have to choose ones they find unpalatable. It is easier to have plants & goldies in a larger tank as you can have enough plants that the grazing is spread out .
2. Snails - depends on what you have. Quite a few snails are plant safe & will eat only dead or decaying leaves. However, some like canas can eat up a tank overnight. (Canas are often confused with the plant safe bridgesii - both are often labeled as "mystery snails" - since it is a mystery to the lfs what kind of snail they are selling.)

 

[jsoong]

We used to have plecos and goldfish together all the time and nothing like that ever happened while we were watching. However, I remember seeing the plecos eating fish which were already dead. It's entirely possible that they killed them.

To clarify, it is the common pleco that is problematic with fancy golds. The dwarf plecos (rubberlip & bristle nose) are fine. <As you can see in my sig, I do have a pleco with my goldies.>

I think the filter might be almost toast, because it's been working full capacity and the water is still cloudy. I overloaded the poor thing and I'll probably have to get a new one.

A new filter shouldn't die just because it is overloaded. If it is getting clogged, clean it. Remove the filter pads & rinse out most of the crud in some tank water. In really bad cases, you might have to clean out the impeller, etc. But you can usu. save an overloaded filter.

 

[Freshie In Disguise]

I think I may be saved.

My fiance works at a resort, and he's their favorite maintainance guy. He tells me they have a 100+ gallon fish tank that used to sit in the center of the lounge. It has a cracked panel which needs replacing, but it will be worth it to fix, considering he thinks he can get the tank for free. Granted, I will still need a monster of a filter, tons of substrate, and some artificial hiding areas, but scoring a tank that big is still pretty good I think. Atleast the goldfish will be saved.

Marli I'm afraid is going to have to go live in the koi pond. The restaraunt which I thought might take her apparently has some plecos around four times her size, and I'd worry. They also have one WIERD fish with a skinny, seahorse-like nose that eats littler fish. I also suspect that they're feeding their fish baitshop minnows, which are dangerous because they are netted directly from wild ponds which often have leeches and microscopic parasites everywhere, due to the fact that the bottom is nothing but peet and guano.

What I worry about sending her to the koi pond is that people actually steal fish out of there. It doesn't happen alot, but every now and then you'll notice a fish gone, and in a week there is a new one. I guess it's a good thing she's not a koi. She would probably be someone's last choice if they were going to steal fish.

Also, I have an idea in the meantime while I am doing PWC's (which I am still doing at 60+%, four times daily).

I read a post about someone giving away duckweed.
You can get duckweed here to add to your koi pond.
I also hear that goldfish and plecos eat it.
Would it be acceptable to add duckweed to my aquarium to try to get the ammonia levels down, and to cut way down on feeding my fish, and let them nibble the duckweed? I figured the fish would produce less ammonia, and the plants would get rid of some of it.

Don't laugh at me if that's a dumb idea, because I haven't a clue!