Very odd fishless cycle...

[Makaveli]

Hello. I started a 20 gallon fishless cycle approximately 2 months ago now. I have never seen a drop in ammonia (4ppm) once since the beginning of the cycle. Today I tested for nitrites and finally noticed a small of of them (somewhere between 0.25 and 0.50 ppm). I am using the API master kit. I'm just wondering if this sounds normal at all? I thought that the ammonia would have to start dropping before the nitrites showed up, but it has not moved. I'm also concerned that 2 months is a bit too long without seeing any change in the ammonia. Everything is set up properly, with the filter running, heater a bit high at 85 degrees, and bubble wand running as well. Any thoughts?

 

[Gibberwatt]

Well, the first question is - are you feeding the bacteria? They need some kind of fish poop/fish poop substitute, like fish food, put in every 12 hours or so. The nitrites probably showed up because they were in the water you put in in a water change.

I don't trust fishless cycles personally, and would suggest you get atleast one fish, and do daily water changes until the tank is cycled.

 

[Fresh2o]

Fishless cycles do work but you need a consistent source of ammonia. Household ammonia free of dyes, perfumes, and surfactants is ideal (bought 1 gallon of it from Harris Teeter grocery store for about $2). But what really helped was established media. I ran a new filter in an established tank for 9 days, transferred some of the media from the established filter into the new filter, moved it to a new tank and within 6 days it was converting 4 ppm to zero in 24 hours. IMO the established media is the reason it went so fast.
There are a few folks on this forum selling established media (usually in the form of a sponge) with positive feedback. The media can be cut to fit into your filter as needed.
Established media is fine for fish in cycles as well.

 

[Makaveli]

Well from what I understand, the ammonia is what is feeding the bacteria. I'm using the pure ammonia from Ace as recommended. I have added some fish flakes here and there though. I've also tested the tap water and there are no nitrites in it at all. They also weren't in the tank at all up until today. So I'm still at a loss.

 

[Fresh2o]

I think 4-6 weeks is normal but at this point I would look for established media to speed things up. One member I know of selling established media is MrFisher. Or go with a fish in cycle.

 

[Fishfur]

Cycles can take this long. That you are seeing a bit of nitrite is a positive sign. Ammonia should begin to drop as the bacteria population grows.

Established media is by far the quickest, easiest way, if you can get it.

And you are correct, the pure ammonia is there to provide a food source for the bacteria that convert it to nitrite . But it can take awhile. Patience is needed.

 

[Makaveli]

Thanks guys, I really like the established media idea...I'm doing some browsing on the forums right now. So then is it normal that the nitrites have shown up before I noticed a drop in ammonia? Maybe the drop in ammonia is just so small that it's hard to read?

 

[shirleyi]

Just wondering on this ,when you say feed bacteria how much bacteria are you supposed to feed and how often ? I am basically in the same situation but with 4 weeks of fishless cycling. I did add a bottle of tectra safe start to get the bacteria going, which between that and just plain ole bacteria from the sides of the tank, ornaments, etc should have gotten ammonia levels down, and nitrites I would think should have already started to show, but so far no nitrites showing and ammonia at 3 .I did add pure ammonia 4 ml's to the tank so the bacteria would have something to feed off of but frustrating levels of ammonia will not go down . Funny thing all the only fish stores I have visited do not believe in fishless cycling they say to get a couple of hardy fish to get your tank cycled !!

 

[Fresh2o]

Are you doing ammonia everyday? Or just enough to get it to 4 ppm and not adding more until it starts to drop?
If you are adding ammonia everyday then there is a chance that conversion to nitrite has already started but the constant addition of ammonia is preventing you from seeing an ammonia drop. I added it only to get it to 4 ppm (2 ppm is fine as well) and did not add more until I saw it drop.

 

[Fishfur]

Truth be told, with most test kits you will never even see a zero ammonia reading, because they combine free ammonia & chemically bound ammonia, called ammonium, so you get a minor ammonia level even though it really is zero. Seachem makes the only test I know of that measures ammonia and ammonium separately. Ammonium is quite harmless, only free ammonia hurts fish.

And no test is 100% accurate, so at this early stage, chances are you would not see a noticeable drop. But you will !

 

[Makaveli]

No, I'm not adding anymore ammonia as I do not want to overdose it. I've had it at 4ppm untouched and it has stayed there.

 

[shirleyi]

Yes the Seachem test sounds a lot more accurate so will have to purchase that . I am not adding ammonia every day as well. I added ammonia to bring the level up to 4ppm ,they say to add more when it drops down to 1 ppm ,but no one says how often to do this ,how many times would you have to bump it up ? My water tap water that is has a reading of 2.0 ammonia in itself so I did a 80 percent water change and added bottled water to the tank four days ago ,I did not vacuum the tank as not to disturb all the bacteria forming on the bottom .The water is crystal clear, but even before I added the bottled water no Nitrites were showing up and ammonia stayed at 3.0 .I just may have to just treat the water so it is non toxic right ???

 

[Makaveli]

I ended up getting seeding material from Mr. Fisher here on the forums. It's on it's way here, so I'll update once I get it and see how that goes

 

[stlbluz]

Truth be told, with most test kits you will never even see a zero ammonia reading, because they combine free ammonia & chemically bound ammonia, called ammonium, so you get a minor ammonia level even though it really is zero. Seachem makes the only test I know of that measures ammonia and ammonium separately. Ammonium is quite harmless, only free ammonia hurts fish.

And no test is 100% accurate, so at this early stage, chances are you would not see a noticeable drop. But you will !

That was one of my mistakes as I kept waiting for a zero reading to start testing for trites & trates. Finally tested on Tuesday & they were off the charts so I did a 50% water change & jacked the ammonia back up to 4ppm. Got this reading last night which I hope reflects that it's trending in the right direction:

 

[Fishfur]

Right direction it looks to me. If you do a fish less cycle, you truly do not have to dechlorinate water. It will gas out all by itself in a day or two. Even chloramines will gas out, though it takes a week or longer. Once fish come into the picture, then you use Prime or something similar, for safety. Small amounts of water don't really need treatment, but it never hurts to make it a habit to treat. Better safe than sorry, IMHO.

Water changes tend to prolong cycling in the early stages, but once you are getting nitrates, WC is the only way to reduce them. Plants will both speed up a cycle and use up some nitrates, (even some ammonia and nitrites, plants are not too fussy ) but beyond a certain point with nitrates , a WC is the main means to control their levels.

Btw, the vast majority of the bacteria you need to cultivate for filtration purposes survive only with a solid surface to cling to, in the presence of a lot of,oxygen and food, which is ammonia. Filters provide ideal living conditions for nitrifying bacteria, whether it is on foam, ceramics, floss, whatever.

Removing water alone doesn't remove many nitrifying bacteria, but big water changes will slow the overall progress before you start getting nitrite and nitrate readings. If you don't use 'seed' material, the original bacteria do have to enter your system via air to water to start with.

I have often wondered if some slower cycles are slow because the air where the tank happens to be located has very few nitrifying bacteria in it.

Whether or not my little theory is true, big water changes during this waiting time don't help.

 

[stlbluz]

A couple of questions then:

1) Should I keep dosing to keep the ammonia at 4ppm until the nitrites go down?
2) Where should my nitrates be at for a safe level for fish?
3) With those readings, should I continue to do WCs or just let the cycle take care of itself for now?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Makaveli]

Just got my seeding materials in and set up thanks to Mr. Fisher. We'll see how it goes!

 

[Fishfur]

Nitrates should never exceed 50 ppm, and most advisers say no more than 20 ppm. Heavily planted tanks may stay below 10 ppm, as plants consume a lot of it. Nitrite and ammonia should always be zero.

If nitrate readings rise over 30 ppm, change water. Once you get well established, you won't have to test so much, unless something happens, say the filter stops or a fish dies, then you'd test to make sure no adverse effects have occurred. Test periodically , but daily or weekly won't be needed once the cycle is stable, and stock has Been added and acclimated.

 

[PNWaquarist]

Truth be told, with most test kits you will never even see a zero ammonia reading, because they combine free ammonia & chemically bound ammonia, called ammonium, so you get a minor ammonia level even though it really is zero. Seachem makes the only test I know of that measures ammonia and ammonium separately. Ammonium is quite harmless, only free ammonia hurts fish.

And no test is 100% accurate, so at this early stage, chances are you would not see a noticeable drop. But you will !

"Chemically bound ammonia" (ammonium, NH4+) is in equilibrium with "free" ammonia (NH3). They are not independent of one another...

NH3 + H2O <=> NH4+ + OH-

Ammonia is the predominant form above pH 9.5 or so, while ammonium dominates at lower pH. In a typical freshwater aquarium (pH in the low/mid 7's), approximately 99% of the total ammonia is in the ammonium form. In saltwater tanks (pH > 8), more of the total ammonia is in the "free" NH3 form. As long as the pH of your tank remains constant, the RATIO of NH4+/NH3 will always be the same.

I don't know much about these kits but, if there is a zero ammonia reading, the ammonium reading will essentially be zero as well.

 

[Fishfur]

I will never completely understand water chemistry, and I am no expert. I do know many people get a minor ammonia reading persistently with the combination tests, so the Seachem test,at least provides some reassurance. Tests vary in accuracy, and you will pay much more for highly accurate testing kits. Lab grade vs hobbyist grade is what I mean.

I know under certain conditions, ammonium can be converted to ammonia, with unhappy results. I keep trying to learn more about the intricate relationships between the many varied things found in water besides hydrogen and oxygen, but it is a very complex subject. I try to explain simply and as best I can with the goal of preventing potential damage to livestock.