Emergency! Sick goldfish.

[Jacky12]

I did daily multiple large water changes when I had 4 fantails in a 40 G too close to the window & algae suddenly bloomed everywhere. I honestly don’t know if too many changes can stress an unwell fish or not. Yours is a baffling situation.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I understand you have done water changes. But dont expect immediate improvements, and the reality is sick fish often dont pull through.

Im not sure what else you expect. Beyond your issues happening immediately after a water change there is no clue as to cause. Something in the water is the most likely cause, but nobody can say what may be in there. You are already doing what you can. Continue to change water regularly. Beyond randoming throwing medication into the water (which is a really bad idea) what more can be done?

 

[Saul]

I am not sure what more can be done, and that is why I am asking.

"Something in the water" is extremely vague.

 

[Aiken Drum]

How can it be anything but vague? As stated all we have to go on is that it happened after a water change.

Take a read through the unhealthy fish sticky. Provide as much information as you are able.

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/before-posting-about-unhealthy-fish-read-this-32451.html

But unfortunately if that doesnt highlight anything that you havent already told us, the "something in the water" is all anyone can offer.

 

[Jacky12]

Yes, “something in the water is vague,” but a quantitative analysis of the water would be virtually impossible.

Did you test the tap water? Mine always has 5ppm nitrate, but it’s a long shot IMO your water quality has suddenly changed, but Colin thinks it’s possible & he’s highly experienced. So what to do if you think the tap water is a potential source of contamination? Some people buy the right kind of bottled water.

 

[Saul]

It would be absurd to purchase 65 gallons of bottled water.

The water has been tested, boiled, treated.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Its very possible that the local water company did work to the system, maybe planned, maybe emergency. Afterwards they often overdose chlorine or chloramine by 3 or 4 times. Maybe even more. If you happen to do your water change shortly after the treatment, before this overdose has had chance to get flushed out, in these circumstances your usual dose of water conditioner wont be enough and this will cause the kind of issues you are seeing. This has happened frequently to members. Its pure speculation as to whether this has happened to you, but i think something along these lines is likely.

 

[Saul]

One of the fish has died now, so I assume the other will too.

The other two are perfectly fine.

 

[Caliban07]

Could have been a TDS (total dissolved solids) or more accurately a conductivity issue. If you are a vigilant water changer this isn’t normally an issue but if water changes are sporadic or you change less than 50% it is possible that the concentration of ions in solution will rise over time. Fish need to balance an osmotic pressure between themselves and the surrounding water, if the osmotic pressure changes abruptly this can cause major issues. This is likely to happen when you replace water with a higher concentration of ions with water with a much lower concentration of ions or vice versa.

You say ammonia was zero but if you didn’t measure it before the water change it is possible there was some underlying ammonia that was made toxic by a sudden increase in pH.

I would stick to weekly 50% water changes. If you do 50% the TDS will level out at a set value and stay relatively stable through water changes.

 

[Jacky12]

Sorry about the loss of your fish and hoping for a better outcome for the others.

Please keep us posted, Saul. I fractured a rib in my car while transporting some fish & am laying around doing basically nothing, so I searched for you & came up empty. There is a Goldfish Emergency line. For $55 one can have an extended phone call. The same place has a blog, but one can’t post & ask questions unless you buy a bunch of books. I seriously doubt these people or any others would have any good solutions. You had 3 experts here: Aiken, Andy & Colin. I don’t think you will find better assistance anywhere, but you may have an epiphany & figure it out.

Best of luck!

 

[Colin_T]

Its very possible that the local water company did work to the system, maybe planned, maybe emergency. Afterwards they often overdose chlorine or chloramine by 3 or 4 times. Maybe even more. If you happen to do your water change shortly after the treatment, before this overdose has had chance to get flushed out, in these circumstances your usual dose of water conditioner wont be enough and this will cause the kind of issues you are seeing. This has happened frequently to members. Its pure speculation as to whether this has happened to you, but i think something along these lines is likely.

This is the most likely cause of the issue. It happens quite regularly and the only thing you can do is add carbon (you've done that), do partial water changes (you've done that), then wait and hope for the best.

Some fish recover from chlorine/ chloramine poisoning and some don't. It just depends on how much they were exposed to. If the levels were high, and the fish spent 20-30 seconds or more in the water, then significant damage will have occurred to the gills.

It sounds like you have done everything you can. The only other option is to put the fish into a different tank with different water and see if that helps. However, the stress of moving them can kill them if they are really unwell.
Cross your fingers, cross your fins, hope they pull through.

 

[Jacky12]

Here’s some info I picked up yesterday from two skilled fish keepers. It unlikely applies to your situation, but is of interest nonetheless. They said fish can adapt to poor water conditions and sudden changes to clean water can have negative effects. One guy said very old practices valued the use of aged tank water which was added to fresh water for new tanks. He said the instructions were quite precise as too much fresh water could injure/kill the fish.

 

[Caliban07]

Here’s some info I picked up yesterday from two skilled fish keepers. It unlikely applies to your situation, but is of interest nonetheless. They said fish can adapt to poor water conditions and sudden changes to clean water can have negative effects. One guy said very old practices valued the use of aged tank water which was added to fresh water for new tanks. He said the instructions were quite precise as too much fresh water could injure/kill the fish.

Most likely because of TDS shock. I’d also consider the use of words ‘poor’ and ‘clean’ here as it could just as easily mean ‘stable’ and ‘swingy’ [emoji846]

If it is the chlorine that is the issue then there is definitely some irony to the whole water change debate. This is the second thread I’ve seen in a few days where chlorine is being considered as the likely cause of die off. How clean is clean?

Not a post directed at you but things that do make one ponder.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Here’s some info I picked up yesterday from two skilled fish keepers. It unlikely applies to your situation, but is of interest nonetheless. They said fish can adapt to poor water conditions and sudden changes to clean water can have negative effects. One guy said very old practices valued the use of aged tank water which was added to fresh water for new tanks. He said the instructions were quite precise as too much fresh water could injure/kill the fish.

This relates to whats refered to as "old tank syndrome".

If you are lax with water changes, stuff disolved in the water tends to build up if it isnt used as part of the natural processes going on in the tank. Other stuff that is used up as part of these natural processes, particularly carbonate hardness (KH), get depleted.

With regards to the building up of stuff, its not so much the built up levels that is harmful as it builds up over time and the fish can adjust. Its when these levels suddenly change and cause a shock to the fishes system that you see problems. For instance, if you havent been doing good water maintenance and your dissolved substances are very high and you do a big water change, the levels will suddenly drop. Say your nitrate is 400ppm and you do a 75% water change. You would go from 400 to 100ppm, a drop of 300ppm. That same 75% water change on 40ppm nitrate would drop from 40 to 10ppm, a drop of 30ppm. This is much less of a swing than 400 to 100ppm.

The other side of this could be moving new fish from a store that has lower levels of dissolved stuff to a tank which has a poor water maintenance routine and high levels. The existing fish are fine as they are adapted, but the new fish will experience a big swing in parameters. This is why acclimating can be important so the swing is more gradual.

With KH, this is used up by the nitrogen cycle and tends to get replenished with water changes. 2 things happen when KH is depleted. The nitrogen cycle will stop functioning and ammonia will build up. pH will also get more acidic. At acidic pH ammonia becomes much less toxic so your fish are fine. You do a water change, add KH back and the pH goes back up. The ammonia in the water suddenly becomes more toxic and results in sick or dead fish.

 

[Jacky12]

Calibon, one could say poor/good. One could say swingy/stable. Let me count the ways.

I don’t see the case under discussion as solely a chlorine issue. Numerous variables have been discussed.

Aiken, what you say makes sense to me. Thanks for the insights.

 

[Caliban07]

This relates to whats refered to as "old tank syndrome".

If you are lax with water changes, stuff disolved in the water tends to build up if it isnt used as part of the natural processes going on in the tank. Other stuff that is used up as part of these natural processes, particularly carbonate hardness (KH), get depleted.

With regards to the building up of stuff, its not so much the built up levels that is harmful as it builds up over time and the fish can adjust. Its when these levels suddenly change and cause a shock to the fishes system that you see problems. For instance, if you havent been doing good water maintenance and your dissolved substances are very high and you do a big water change, the levels will suddenly drop. Say your nitrate is 400ppm and you do a 75% water change. You would go from 400 to 100ppm, a drop of 300ppm. That same 75% water change on 40ppm nitrate would drop from 40 to 10ppm, a drop of 30ppm. This is much less of a swing than 400 to 100ppm.

The other side of this could be moving new fish from a store that has lower levels of dissolved stuff to a tank which has a poor water maintenance routine and high levels. The existing fish are fine as they are adapted, but the new fish will experience a big swing in parameters. This is why acclimating can be important so the swing is more gradual.

With KH, this is used up by the nitrogen cycle and tends to get replenished with water changes. 2 things happen when KH is depleted. The nitrogen cycle will stop functioning and ammonia will build up. pH will also get more acidic. At acidic pH ammonia becomes much less toxic so your fish are fine. You do a water change, add KH back and the pH goes back up. The ammonia in the water suddenly becomes more toxic and results in sick or dead fish.

Here’s a question.

If you have a an aquarium chock full of plants that are actively scavenging any ammonia/ammonium as it becomes available. How much nitrification as actually occurring? If the mass of ammonia is being consumed by the plants and nitrification is extremely low then would you expect KH to remain relatively stable?

 

[Caliban07]

Calibon, one could say poor/good. One could say swingy/stable. Let me count the ways.

I don’t see the case under discussion as solely a chlorine issue. Numerous variables have been discussed.

Aiken, what you say makes sense to me. Thanks for the insights.

They could say what they believe to reaffirm their beliefs. You are correct.

It’s very difficult to say what the cause is I agree.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Here’s a question.

If you have a an aquarium chock full of plants that are actively scavenging any ammonia/ammonium as it becomes available. How much nitrification as actually occurring? If the mass of ammonia is being consumed by the plants and nitrification is extremely low then would you expect KH to remain relatively stable?

This is something ive only very recently seen being discussed, like the last couple of months. So im not sure if its something recently discovered or recently circulated, or something ive not picked up on before. Or even if its true.

What im reading recently is that plants will take up available ammonia before it starts to take up available nitrate. And that they take up ammonia quicker than the nitrogen cycle can utilise it.

If all the ammonia is being utilised by plants then i would expect KH not to be depleted via nitrification because there would be very little nitrification. Except maybe at night?

Fish respiration will still acidify water, so i think KH would still deplete through buffering the pH, but more slowly.

 

[Caliban07]

This is something ive only very recently seen being discussed, like the last couple of months. So im not sure if its something recently discovered or recently circulated, or something ive not picked up on before. Or even if its true.

What im reading recently is that plants will take up available ammonia before it starts to take up available nitrate. And that they take up ammonia quicker than the nitrogen cycle can utilise it.

If all the ammonia is being utilised by plants then i would expect KH not to be depleted via nitrification because there would be very little nitrification. Except maybe at night?

Fish respiration will still acidify water, so i think KH would still deplete through buffering the pH, but more slowly.

Well your logic is spot on. This is one of the reasons why I worry less about acidity in a no water change system and that if you understand what you are doing and how things work the system may not behave in a black and white manner as we believe.

Again, you’re correct. These are just my hypothesis like everything else.

I wonder how long a system with a relatively good starting KH would last in this respect without water changes.

How low will the pH ultimately drop? If left long enough are these acids used in other processes and if there is no ammonia because the plants are using it all then suddenly raising KH in a tank of this nature should not be an issue. The plants get more nitrogen and can oxygenate the water column far better than any air source. There’s only 21% o2 in air, plants release 100% which is a net result of co2 uptake. Thats one acidity removal process we know about.

In any case. A bit of crushed coral or dolomite gravel should take care if any kH drops and trickle charge the system. As pH drops to the point the acidity corrodes the coral, KH is released and the cycle continues [emoji846]

If you have soft water fish, why would this matter and do wild diurnal pH swing really negatively effect fish?

Only one way to find out.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The point about plants taking up ammonia quicker than the denitrifying bacteria doesnt ring true to me. I'm sceptical.

Ive done fishless cycles where ive dosed ammonia to decent levels, say 2ppm. I get to a point during the process where i can dose, go off and do something for 20 minutes, come back and test the water, and the ammonia has cycled out to nitrite. Essentially, even at high ammonia levels, the filter is consuming all the ammonia going through it and expelling water clear of ammonia. I just dont see plants being able to compete for ammonia as quickly as an established filter. Filters pull water through them really quickly, but maybe its a result of my over filtration and in a more normally filtered tank you wouldnt see such rapid consumption of ammonia.