Nitrates

[squeekness]

What does it mean when my nitrites are very low (good) but my nitrates are high (supposedly bad)? I do water changes each week, 10 -20%. I don't have a lot of fish in there. I don't get it. I vacuum my gravel each time, too. Do my fish poop too much? *confused*

 

[rich311k]

I would up the water changes to 35-50% a week. That will keep the nitrate number nice and low. Nitrites should be 0 not just low.

What size tank and what is the stocking? How much do you feed?

 

[roka64]

I agree with rich, have you tested your source water for nitrAtes?

 

[Zagz]

I agree with the increase in water changes. Also do you add dechlorinator each pwc? How much are you feeding, often overfeeding can cause high nitrates.

 

[squeekness]

I have a 110 gallon tank.

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known. I run two filters - a Magnum 350 canister with the paper water polishing sleeve and a Hagen Aquaclear 500 on the back with activated charcoal and foam bar. I haven't the slightest clue how many gallons per hour those fellow push, but it's quite a lot, LOL.

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes? I have several fish ~ two irridescent sharks, both about 18 inches each, and a smaller albino shark that is about six inches. I have an aged silver dollar, I'd say about six inches in diameter. I have a red tailed shark, about six inches. I have a clown loach, a newbie at about two inches. And this large pleco, about 11 inches long. I also have three aneaus catfish all many years old and about 1.5 to 2 inches each.

I've been using Mrdels 5 in 1 test strips. My source water has both 0 nitite and nitrate, but my tank water is 0 nitrite but reads the highest (200) in nitrate. My LFS guy said a 10 -20% change each week would be more than fine, but the test strips tell me othewise. I add dechlorinator each time.

I only feed once a day -- 5-6 algae wafers and maybe 1/2 teaspoon of shrimp pellets.

 

[Jchillin]

Arrrggh...those darn test strips. You will get better and more accurate measurements with a liquid re-agent kit such as the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals brand. Test strips seem to give very bad results and yours is such an example.

 

[JustOneMore20]

I agree...I'd get a liquid test kit. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes a great one that isn't expensive at all. Also, with all those big fish (which means big waste), I'd do more like 40-50% water changes weekly.

 

[squeekness]

Okay, thanks to both of you. I will get another test kit and do bigger water changes. Hopefully that will help.

 

[7Enigma]

Yup, you have a LOT of waste being produced by those puppies. Thought of any fast growing low light, easy to care for plants? Something like anacharis would just soak up those nitrAtes!

 

[squeekness]

I don't know crap about plants. I do know thay my sharks are fairly disruptive to things in my tanks. They tend to knock stuff over and unbury my bubble bar all the time. I suspect they would do a fine job of uprooting anything I planted.

 

[7Enigma]

I don't know crap about plants. I do know thay my sharks are fairly disruptive to things in my tanks. They tend to knock stuff over and unbury my bubble bar all the time. I suspect they would do a fine job of uprooting anything I planted.

Anacharis is a plant that doesn't care where it is in the tank. You can plant it, have it floating, tie it to something, etc. It is an incredible nitrAte sponge and grows very quickly even in poorer light conditions. Pretty neat looking too. I would imagine even if one of your fish took a liking to it they couldn't eat it all. It's just that weed-like!

 

[squeekness]

If it doesn't matter if it's buried or not, I suppose I could give it a go. I'll look into it, thanks.

 

[7Enigma]

No problem!

Quick question though. I see you are using AC in your filter. How often do you replace it? I'm thinking that nitrIte reading your seeing is from removing a good portion of your biological filter when you change the AC out. I would recommend you don't replace it, just wring it out every once in a while in used tank water to get the large particles off.

Also when you get a liquid test kit (you could try it now but the results would probably be worthless) do a serial dilution.

First test your tap water for nitrAte with the new liquid kit. If it reads 0, this will be very easy and very accurate.

Take a small cup and get out a large clean bowl. Add 1 cup of tank water and 3 cups of tap water (if nitrAte is zero in tap, otherwise use bottled, or realize your final numbers will not be extremely acccurate). Mix the water in the bowl. Now do your nitrAte test.

When you get your results multiply that number by 4. So if for instance you do the dilution and test and come up with 20ppm nitrAte, your tank really has ~80ppm nitrAte. If you're still reading over 200ppm do a larger dilution (say 1 cup tank water to 6 cups tap, then multiply results by 7), or you can do less (1 cup tank water, 1 cup tap, multiply results by 2).

What this does is allow for an accurate estimation of very high tank levels, levels that our color charts don't make it easy to determine.

Either way some large PWC's are in order, and your fish will be very happy. I wouldn't recommend doing more than 1 50% change every day. Even better would be a 25% change every day for a week or so. That's a lot of work, but its a nice steady way to decrease your nitrAte and other dissolved solid levels without too much shock to your fish.

HTH

 

[squeekness]

Well, I talked to my LFS guy who knows me pretty well. He said I should do a large change -- maybe 50% and then do smaller ones 20% every day or every other day until I get a more normal nitrate reading. Then go back to doing 20-25% each week. Doing these changes is much less of hassle now that I have a python.

He also laughed a little when I asked him about the anachris plants. He said, "You have a large pleco, right?"

I said, "Yeah, it is at least 12 inches long."

He laughed and said it would be like feeding my pleco lettuce (chow time!), it would be devored in no time, though he said I could try it anyways. Maybe if a put a big enough bunch in there it might last long enough to do some good.

I use AC yes, in my aquaclear (about a cup's worth at least) and change it outright once a month. If I were to just rinse it like you said and not change it, how long would it last me?

 

[7Enigma]

I use AC yes, in my aquaclear (about a cup's worth at least) and change it outright once a month. If I were to just rinse it like you said and not change it, how long would it last me?

What else is in your AquaClear filter? Is it just the carbon, or do you have other inserts as well? The only unique purpose for activated carbon is to remove tannins from the water (due to driftwood, etc), or to get rid of medication after treatment. Other than that, there is no reason to use it IMO. The ceramic media that is normally sold with the AC filters is great for biological filtration (getting rid of the ammonia), and the foam filter is very good for mechanical filtration (getting rid of pieces of gunk such as uneaten food, plant debris, etc).

Every time you throw out that carbon you are damaging your biological filter and will probably have a minicycle depending on how much of the total filter it was. It's also expensive to keep replacing the carbon, with the ceramic media and foam inserts, you just rinse them off in tank water every couple weeks to keep the flow up and everything is fine.

 

[squeekness]

What is this ceramic media? I haven't heard of it.

I use the foam sponge in the aquaclear filter and the thing is so old I couldn't tell you how long I've had it. I just rinse it out now and again and reuse it. The instructions that came with my aged aquaclear told me to change the carbon every month. Of course I don't buy theirs, I buy it loose and bag it for big savings. When I first started having tanks, many many moons ago, this was what everyone did. I am now long out of touch with other hobbyists. I like this board because I get ideas from other people and new things to try. I am guessing that back when I bought my aquaclear, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, there was no such thing as ceramic media. *My Aquaclear is actually about 15 years old and still going strong, yay Hagan! *

EDIT: So I took my limited attention span and wandered. Is this the "ceramic media" you are referring to?

If so, I have heard of this (they used to sell it in big hunks as tank decorations back in the day), but was under the impression it could not be used indefiniately. Supposedly -- way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, lol -- I was told this media could be "recharged" by soaking it in non-iodized salted water. I don't know if this true, but it seems to me that any media that absorbed ammonia would have a limit, even if it was good for a year, say. Is this the stuff you mean? I was under the impression that this media was best for tanks with high ammonia, like if you had goldfish, but that it was not neccessary for mine where the nitrites are so low. That is why I always used the carbon instead.

 

[7Enigma]

OK, bunch of questions, I'll try to answer them all.

No, the product you posted is NOT ceramic media. It is a chemical removal that similar to carbon works for a short time and then is spent. I would not personally recommend it. It's something to keep handy if cycling with fish in case someone else would be watching the tank and you didn't think they would do a water change, but it has limited use since it will starve the bacteria from all ammonia (and thus really ruin your cycle).

As mentioned in my last post there are 2 main types of filtration. First and least important is mechanical filtration. This removes all the large debris from the tank by physically removing it from the water (think coffee in a coffee filter). This is more for aesthetics than any practical function. You can have a cloudy gunky tank with a lot of sediment and your fish will be fine. It just won't look nice.

Second and most important is the biological filtration, that is removal or conversion of toxic ammonia and nitrIte into nitrAte. This is why many people new to the hobby kill their fish, and why there are many MANY products that claim to remove/detoxify/etc. Your bacteria builds up on surfaces throughout your tank and converts the ammonia and nitrIte to nitrAte. Since your filter gets the highest flow of any part of the tank it will likewise house the largest amount of bacteria if the surfaces allow. Porous surfaces like that of ceramic beads and carbon are great places since they can house a lot of bacteria in a small space. Foam pads and filter floss primarily function as mechanical filtration since they do not have much surface area compared to the ceramic and carbon.

The reason why activated carbon is shipped with most new tanks is to give a buffer between the time when your bacteria have multiplied to be able to handle the bioload of fish. The carbon will absorb the ammonia keeping the fish safe, and at the same time providing a large surface area for the beneficial bacteria to bind. The problem is that most of these filters come with directions that say to replace the AC after a set period of time. After a week or so (exact numbers are questionable) the AC's ability to absorb contaminants is diminished. But there is now beneficial bacteria present on the carbon. Probably not enough to handle the bioload, but better than nothing.

Now you go and replace the carbon (in many filters the carbon is the only insert so you basically replace the entire filter). For a couple days everything is great as the new carbon will absorb all the contaminants. But again, the carbon loses its effectiveness and you're left with a tank that cannot convert ammonia at an adequate rate. Every time you change out the carbon you get a minicycle and that ammonia/nitrIte will harm the fish. You might get GW from the ammonia in the water, other algae, and disease.

So that's why many of use recommend not using carbon unless treating with medication (to rid the water of medication after treatment), or when removing tannins from the water (after adding driftwood), or for a polishing step to get rid of foul odors (for instance after neglect/fish death/etc).

But if you're going to use carbon, you're better off rinsing it like the foam insert and putting it back in. It will have a good portion of your biological filter on it. For myself, I just chucked the carbon before setting up the filter and put another foam insert in for mechanical filtering and some biological.

Here's the ceramic inserts I was referring too, they are called BioMax beads:

HTH

 

[squeekness]

Ah, I see. They were not selling that stuff when I bought my aquaclear -- see previous notes on dinosaurs roaming the earth, lol. I will definately have to check out that bio-max stuff. Sounds pretty neat.

I figure that I have mechanical filtration covered with the foam bar in the aquaclear, plus I have the Magnum running all the time with the micron filter sleeve. I do however seem to be struggling with the biological filtration. I will have to give your bio-max beads a serious look.

EDIT: I did some reading on the bio-max and it sounds great. I do have a question -- activated carbon removes more than ammonia, it also removes chlorine and other crap. If I used the foam bar, the biomax insert, but also a smaller amount of AC (assuming all that fits in there) would changing the carbon each month or so still upset the cycle if I leave the biomax in there and just rinsed it like you said?

 

[7Enigma]

If I used the foam bar, the biomax insert, but also a smaller amount of AC (assuming all that fits in there) would changing the carbon each month or so still upset the cycle if I leave the biomax in there and just rinsed it like you said?

Once the biomax was well established it *probably* would not harm the biological capacity. I cannot answer that question exactly because there are too many factors and exceptions. Remember every surface in your tank is a place for bacteria to adhere. If you have a lot of tunnels, decorations, fake/real plants, fine substrate, etc; these all create the ability to support a larger stocking.

Here's my personal feeling on carbon, it is not needed in most cases. It is taking up valuable space in your filter and doing a job that is not needed. Chlorine should be taken care of by your dechlorinator at water changes. It needs to be removed/treated PRIOR to interacting with your filter or it will kill bacteria until it gets removed by the carbon.

Keep what you have for after medication, and if the tank begins to stink. Replace the carbon insert with the biomax (or even better for a short time put your sponge in the tank and put the biomax after the carbon). This will increase your biological filter capacity while hopefully not starting a minicycle. You could also do what I did and cut the filter foam in 1/2 so you can get all 3 in the filter at once. The piece of foam you cut off just let it float in the tank until your ready to put it back in the filter.

 

[squeekness]

I am still surprised that you can get away with no carbon, but it occurs to me that some of that may be because you do have a planted tank. My tank is nearly empty on account of those rowdy sharks. They really are too big for my tank and have a tendency to knock stuff over so I only have a few small rocks so my loach and red tail shark have a place to hang out.

My nitrites are very low, 0 really, and think the carbon is helping with that. Plus I also use the Microbe Lift "Special Blend" every two weeks where I am adding bacteria to my tank to help with the breakdown of nitrates. I will take your advice and buy the bio-max and get a new foam bar to cut in half, the one I have now is pretty old. Thanks so much for helping me.