post septicemia query

[Princess1982]

My white moor recently had a nasty bacterial infection (I suspect septicemia) after a white spot outbreak. I have treated with tetracycline but I am not sure if treatment has worked. The red streaks are a lot less prominent but nevertheless still there and the edges of her tail fin which were blood red are now black. She seems happier in herself but it could be because the ich has now cleared up.
Does anyone have any experience with septicemia and if so how can you tell if it is going? I also would like to reunite all my fish after separating them to give the best treatments to each type of fish during the ich outbreak. How long should you leave it before you can be sure it is gone?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[jlk]

Hi Princess! Ok, how did everyone do with the ich? Is the moor the only one left thats still having issues? Can you post a pic of her? Thanks!

 

[Princess1982]

Hi JLK

All the white spots have gone from all of the fish now. They all seem much happier with the exception of the ryukin that has the swimbladder problem. He is laying on his side at the bottom of the tank and can no longer get off the bottom at all. Every time he tries he ends up swimming backwards upside down along the bottom of the tank. He is still eating but doesn't look happy.
The white moor seems more herself but still has thin red streaks running through her tail. The ends of her tail that used to be red are now black which I believe is a sign it's healing but just wanted to be sure. I will try and take some pictures when I am home from work. Thanks

 

[jlk]

Well, I know you had issues with your ryukin before any of this happened. Unfortunately, there isnt a magic cure for him and it seems (in my experience anyway) that ryukins tend to suffer from buoyancy issues frequently due to their physical build. One of the negatives of keeping fancies.

Hope to see pics of your moor when you get a chance!

 

[Princess1982]

Here are the best pics I have been able to take of my white moor. She seems to move a lot more than usual when I am trying to take photos!

 

[Princess1982]

Just checked the water in the moor's and ryukins hospital tank and the meds have played havoc with the bacteria. I did 2 x 50% water changes yesterday and just came home to find big spikes again. I have just done 3 x back to back 50% water changes and the readings are now as follows
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 10 - 20
Nitrite - 0.25

I assume I will need to do daily water changes now as the tank is cycling again? No wonder these poor fish are starting to look worse again. And now my ryukin has stopped eating. We all know it is never a good sign when a goldie stops eating :-( Shall I move these fish in to the tank that is cycled and currently holding my pleco? I haven't seen white spots in any of my tanks for over a week so is it safe to move the Pleco back to the main tank and then move the ill fish to the smaller cycled tank? I have just beaten the Ich outbreak the last thing I want to do is now lose my fish to ammonia poisoning! I feel like a dumb novice all over again :-(

 

[jlk]

Thanks! Ok, the red streaks are new, correct? Her tail looks bit ragged but it may normally look like this. Yes, it should be safe to move the pleco back as long as the salt is reduced in the main tank. Then move these 2 where ever you need to. I would suggest treating her for a second course of meds but I think your going to need your lfs's help again for antibiotics. If they are not able to help again, your pretty limited in your options and you may just want to move her back to the big tank with stable parameters. You could treat their tank with methylene blue as a last option if antibiotics are not possible but it will stain everything.

 

[Princess1982]

Hi JLK

The moor had the red streaks and ragged tail before. It started shortly after the white spot so I thought it was a bacterial infection. The large red spots have gone but the thinner red streaks on her tail fin remain. And the jagged edges on her tail that were an angry red are now black. Everything else has now gone. I still tested the water when I was treating with meds and the ammonia has been high for at least the last week or so. I have been doing large water changes the last 3 days but I'm wondering if the thin red streaks are now due to the ammonia. She is at the top of the tank all the time.

I think I will move her into the cycled tank tonight and will keep an eye on her here. If she doesn't look like she is happier in 24_48 hrs I will try to re dose with meds if I can convince my lfs to break the law again and give some to me.

By the way, as my ryukin has been looking really bad the last couple of days he has been easier to catch. I was having a good look to see if he has any red streaks (he also has fine ones in his tail) and I can't see any obvious scales on his body. This may be a very silly question, but can ryukins be scalesless? I noticed this before several months ago when he was going through his floating stage but to honest I didn't think anything of it. I have only been aware of scales since starting treatment recently as I had to move my pleco as I had to treat my larger tank with meds. Do you think this is why he has suddenly taken a turn for the worse?

Thanks JLK.

 

[jlk]

Ok, keep us posted! I honestly have never heard of ryukins being scaleless though I am sure anything is possible. If you run a fingernail very gently towards his head, do you feel scales? Scales are pretty much transparent so you dont exactly 'see' them. If he truly has no scales, then he is a genetic oddity. If they all fell off, then he has some serious issues and I will be honest, its not something I have ever encountered. That said, ryukins are the only goldfish breed I have ever had buoyancy issues with that were not treatable (even with some extreme measures).

 

[Princess1982]

Well I have just got home and my ryukin has passed away. :-( I am so sad but at least he is now at peace. He hasn't had a good quality of life the last few months. When I took him out the tank all his colour came off? Is that normal or indicative of some sort of disease? I was going to move the moor back in with the others but am reluctant to do so if there is something else going on in that tank.

 

[jlk]

I am very sorry about your ryukin

Ill be honest, I have no idea what else was going on with him beyond his buoyancy issues and Im not sure what/why his color would come off when you removed him. Ill do some looking to see if I can find reference to this anywhere because I dont know what this possibly could be beyond a very severe internal infection that perhaps resulted in his skin becoming necrotic and falling off. Just a guess here because its not something I have ever seen before.

Now, whether you want to keep the moor in this tank or not, I am not sure because I dont know what happened to ryukin. If you do keep her in here, I would do some water changes on this tank.

 

[Princess1982]

I have just done an emergency water change - 2 x 50% back to back, I have also taken the moor out to take some snap shots of her tail as it has got worse again. Her tail is bright red and black at the ends. She now has red patches on her belly too where scales used to be. Please can you take a look and tell me if you think it is bad ammonia poisoning or septicemia or something else. I don't want to misdiagnose and I am terrified of losing any more fish. I have enough tetracycline left for 1 treatment. I can either leave her in this uncycled tank or move her to another tank which is cycled already but wont the tetra kill all the good bacteria anyway? I really don't know what to do for the best

 

[jlk]

Yes, the tetra will harm bb in cycled tank. What was your amm before the water changes? I dont know if this is from toxins in the water or possibly septicemia/something the ryukin had. I would go ahead & add tetra. Keep us posted!

 

[Princess1982]

Well this tank is completely uncycled and the ammonia keeps jumping up to around 2ppm. I am doing daily water changes but if Im honest im struggling to keep it under 2ppm. If I treat her with tetra I cant do water changes for 48 hours and I think the ammonia will shoot up and I'm worried this will kill her. I'm tempted to move her to the smaller cycled tank for a couple of days to see if there is improvement and if not then treat her with tetra. How long does it take to see improvement if this is ammonia or nitrate poisoning?

 

[jlk]

Thats good idea! Go ahead & move her and lets see if she improves before considering meds again. But, 24 or 48hrs of tetra wont be enough if she needs treatment and may only further complicate things- if she needs meds, it needs to be a full course to help or you will only wind up with more resistant bacteria.

 

[Princess1982]

So, have just done a 25% water change on the big tank for good measure and moved the pleco back in here. Then did a 75% water change in the small tank, added salt at 1g/litre and reduced the temp down to 26 degrees so it was the same as the hospital tank and put the moor in here. It's only been a short time but where she has been floating at the top in the hospital tank for days, she is now exploring all over her new tank. I really have a gut feeling (and deeply hoping) that this is down to the high ammonia and nitrite spikes in the hospital tank over the last week. But for now anyway, she is active and doesn't appear stressed by the move which is good news. The pleco on the other hand doesn't appear impressed that he has to share a tank again....

 

[jlk]

Haha!!! The plec will adjust! I am glad to hear shes back to exploring & acting more herself. Keep us posted!

 

[Princess1982]

Just come home from work and she is still alive! She doesn't look any better but I doubt she will improve overnight and she doesn't look any worse which is good. Still eating normally and the water is perfect.

ammonia 0
nitrate 10
nitrite 0

I ordered a new fish weeks ago and she/he arrives on Sunday. I'm telling you now I'm quarantining that fish for at least a week! I'm never going through this again - I have learnt my lesson!

Thanks for your help all. x

 

[jlk]

I would qt the new fish for atleast 3-4 weeks. Ich can show up to 3wks after purchasing a new fish. Some of the more insidous problems (such as anchor worm) can take a month or longer. The longer you can qt, the better! Good luck with her and your new fish!!