CSM+B Causing hair algae!?!?

[fish_4_all]

It is almost certainly the cause as yesterday I dosed my CSM+B to .2ppm iron and the tnak that had a liittle but it starting to be under control went nuts. It multiplied 20 fold overnight. I kmnow my dose was probably a little high because of this and I will be cutting back to prevent any further outbreaks. I think the main problem is root tabs that haven't completely dissolved and broke apart when I moved a couple plants and they went everywhere.

Thought it was good info.

Should I just quit dosing micros ir just cut back to allow the plants time to use up the excess iron? And just to refresh my memory, what does iron deficiancy look like so I know when I need to dose again!

 

[Devilishturtles]

Moved to Planted forum.

 

[Jchillin]

FWIW, so long as things are going well with your standard dosing regimen, no changes are needed. If a change is needed, and only because you observe obvious signs or have a negative test result, then modifying dosing is ok.

The signs of Fe deficiency are yellow leaves, especially in new growth.

 

[Purrbox]

It's more likely that the excess due to either the micro dosing or the ferts from the root tabs caused a shortage in one of your other ferts. You might want to check whether either your Nitrates or Phosphates bottomed out.

 

[7Enigma]

Before spending too much time trying to find out what is wrong I'd just do a large water change or a couple back to back. Then start from scratch. So many times these problems are just easier fixed by starting over. You probably have a large nutrient imbalance, and most likely something you can't directly measure (such as iron, or K).

An addition to the Fe deficiency is that the veins of the leaves will remain green while the leaves yellow. Unfortunately this is also the visible sign for a magnesium (Mg) deficiency as well. Is your water soft?

 

[fish_4_all]

I think starting over is a good idea. I dose magnesium in trace amounts at times just to keep the GH above 5ppm. My NO3 could have easily bottomed out and I wouldn't have noticed it. I only test it when I think there is a problem because I really hate to shake that thing for 3 minutes. All I do know is this stuff really grows fast and my otos aren't really making a dent in it yet. I am also going to try a little less light for a few days, maybe that will help.

Does it also help to get rid of as much of the hair algae as possible or will it just starve once I reset my tank?

Edit: I think the phosphates are high and the nitrates are low from the pattern showing up on my tests. The PO4 is always high for some reason, probably my sucky food and a little overfeeding but a pattern is emerging. After I added the high uptake plants of lower nitrates. It would usually go to 25-30ppm before a water change now it drops to about 5-10ppm before a water change. I was only dosing 1/16-1/32 tsp which was less than 10 ppm. We will see if it helps. I upped to a full 10ppm dosed now and will keep it there until the PO4 starts to drop with it.

Oh the intricacies of the ever changing planted tank.

 

[Jchillin]

The hair algae usually goes away with proper balance, I can sure attest to that when I had an outbreak due to nitrates bottoming out.

Oh the intricacies of the ever changing planted tank.

Indeed.

 

[fish_4_all]

When I test for PO4, I get a milky blue. I know this should mean that it is still high 3-5ppm, but what is causing the milky color? This could be the cause of my dosing dilema if this is giving me a reading that is way too high or way too low.

 

[7Enigma]

I only test it when I think there is a problem because I really hate to shake that thing for 3 minutes.

Does it also help to get rid of as much of the hair algae as possible or will it just starve once I reset my tank?

Oh the intricacies of the ever changing planted tank.

You have the AP test kit for nitrAte correct? You should not be shaking the tube for 3 minutes. It's 30seconds of bottle #2 before you add the 10drops in, and then 1 minute of the tube. If your shaking for 2 more minutes you could be throwing off your true results.

I would recommend removing as much as possible if its only on certain leaves (i.e. not 90%). If its on most I'd still remove the trouble ones such as ones you can barely see, look unhealthy, etc. I find as long as you don't cause an imbalance that you can be pretty wild on the ferts, but once algae gains a foothold, it is quite difficult (or just as bad takes a long time) to get rid of. I'd want the LEAST amount of algae in the tank if I'm going to try to get rid of it.

And yes, that's the fun and the pain of a planted tank. To much variation.

 

[fish_4_all]

I have the AP test. And yes, I only shake it for 30 seconds or so and then 1 minute. Was exaggerating a little. That is when I didn't have to test 3 times a week before fast growing plants.

But what about the PO4 test kit? Is it normal for the test results to be cloudy? I am almost certain it is higher than 3 ppm but do I need to get a another test or am I doing something wrong? The first test is thin and easily drops. The second bottle is so thick that I may be getting too much and messing up the test. Could this be right? If so, what can I do about it?

 

[Purrbox]

Sounds like there may be a problem with your PO4 test kit. Check the expiration date. If it hasn't expired yet, have your LFS verify your test results. If the test is expired or the LFS gets totally different results, it's probably time to replace your test kit.

 

[fish_4_all]

I took your advice and left the CSB+M dosing the same and dosed more NO3. Well low and behold, it worked, or is at least working. The hair algae is not growing anymore and the plants seem to be fighting back to get rid of it. I am also seeing a major growth spurt from some plants that I didn't think would grow at all. Maybe that is why my Water Sprite didn't do so well in the same tank. The other tank I did the same thing and my water sprite pearled along with every other plant in the tank.

Just goes to show you need to ask before leaping into a guess. Saved me a lot of frustration from causing even more problems by doing the wrong thing.

I should have paid more attention to the plants that weren't growing and realized it was likely a NO3 shortage but it never crossed my mind as I thought they were just not established yet. Is a good case to show that a variety of plants can help to diagnose a problem that might otherwise be hard to isolate. That is if you pay attention to the plants and the symptoms.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

PO4 tests will turn milky when in the high range after the recommended read time. This has been normal behavior in all my tests when I find it high. Make sure that after you add the thick regent from #2 you give it some shakes (i don't go by the instructions as far as shaking goes) and then I read it after 2.5 minutes. It is usually still clear and colored. If i get lazy and walk away and come back 5 minutes later it will have turned milky. Double check the wait time on test results

 

[Plantbrain]

I took your advice and left the CSB+M dosing the same and dosed more NO3. Well low and behold, it worked, or is at least working. The hair algae is not growing anymore and the plants seem to be fighting back to get rid of it. I am also seeing a major growth spurt from some plants that I didn't think would grow at all. Maybe that is why my Water Sprite didn't do so well in the same tank. The other tank I did the same thing and my water sprite pearled along with every other plant in the tank.

Just goes to show you need to ask before leaping into a guess. Saved me a lot of frustration from causing even more problems by doing the wrong thing.

I should have paid more attention to the plants that weren't growing and realized it was likely a NO3 shortage but it never crossed my mind as I thought they were just not established yet. Is a good case to show that a variety of plants can help to diagnose a problem that might otherwise be hard to isolate. That is if you pay attention to the plants and the symptoms.

So you will forgive folks when they say it's not the Fe?
Lull in general growth: CO2, and NO3.
Low NO3: BGA often appears as well.
Doing those weekly water changes, dosing 2-3x a week, daily if that works better for you, then do the weekly 50% water change again makes life simple, easy and you never run out of nutrients.

Nothing builds up, nothing runs out.
CO2 is all you focus on from there.
No NO3/PO4 test kits needed.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[fish_4_all]

LOL, yes but it was the iron that did it. It was my failure to keep up with the tanks though that was the ultimate cause. I wanted the NO3 to get lower and start being used up. Well it got used up alright because I had a lot of excess iron from dosing on top of multiple root tabs in the tank. Was inevitable regardless of my iron levels, it just brought it up a little faster. Now I just have to make sure I remember to dose PO4 when it finally gets low enough to need it and before signs of deficiency start to show and I have to blame Mg or CA for the problem.

I guess I have reached another "stage" since I now have fast consumption heavy planted tanks. Now maybe I will be able to enjoy the tank a little more. Almost ready for EI, not quite because I don't understand it completly yet but this experience helps me understand it a little more. That and I am not ready to do 3-5 water changes to reset my PO4. Will let it run low by itself and then give dosing with EI a try.

Thanks for being nice, some of just have to learn the hard way. That and I need to know my tanks are using the nutrients fast enough to warrent EI and once I am there, I will use it just to make the whole process a little easier.

BTW, what are the signs of PO4 deficiency so I know what to look for? Glowing veins with alien mutations?

 

[Plantbrain]

LOL, yes but it was the iron that did it. It was my failure to keep up with the tanks though that was the ultimate cause. I wanted the NO3 to get lower and start being used up. Well it got used up alright because I had a lot of excess iron from dosing on top of multiple root tabs in the tank. Was inevitable regardless of my iron levels, it just brought it up a little faster. Now I just have to make sure I remember to dose PO4 when it finally gets low enough to need it and before signs of deficiency start to show and I have to blame Mg or CA for the problem.

I guess I have reached another "stage" since I now have fast consumption heavy planted tanks. Now maybe I will be able to enjoy the tank a little more. Almost ready for EI, not quite because I don't understand it completly yet but this experience helps me understand it a little more. That and I am not ready to do 3-5 water changes to reset my PO4. Will let it run low by itself and then give dosing with EI a try.

Thanks for being nice, some of just have to learn the hard way. That and I need to know my tanks are using the nutrients fast enough to warrent EI and once I am there, I will use it just to make the whole process a little easier.

BTW, what are the signs of PO4 deficiency so I know what to look for? Glowing veins with alien mutations?

I'm certinly a person that has to do things myself.
I've learned to be inherently suspicious in this hobby with good reason.
Much of the advice was wrong.

While you might believe the Fe caused it, in order for that hypothesis to be true, I should be able to add Fe to excessive levels and induce algae.

But........
I cannot and never have for well past 12-15 years now.

So in order for that to be the cause, not mere correlation, I would have to get algae.

I cannot reproduce that in any of my tanks due solely to Fe.

Now, 5mls in a 75 liter tank daily is a fair amount?
Now how about 200mls in a 75 liter tank?

Seachem flourish is the brand BTW.
Also did TMG at 10mls daily.

Never got any algae.
Well over a decade, many different tanks, many different fish loads, tap water supplies from CA to FL.

Bunch of weedy plants is all I got.

Now if you have poor CO2, and you add things like PO4/Fe etc, that will sometimes increase algae.

But that's due to poor plant health/growth, not excess nutrients.
The plants stop taking up CO2/NH4(nutrient limitation or CO2 limitation) and the algae appear.
By adding Fe, you may simply be causing another nutrient, say NO3 to be taken up, then you have less NO3 and the plant stops growing.takign up NH4 etc, then the plant is a sitting duck and gets covered with algae.

EI is very simple.
Maybe too simple and it's as cheap as any method can be for the CO2 enrichement methods.

Tell me the size of the tank and I'll give you a simple routine.
Add lots of CO2, you likely need more anyway, and the algae will go away.

Say the tank is a 55 gallon:

Weekly 50% water change
Add 1 teaspoon GH booster(see gregwatson's site)

Add 3x a week:
1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4
Traces: 10 mls 3x a week, say Tropic master grow etc

That's it.
You add 4 things, 2-3 x a week
Simple as pie.
2 steps more complex than making cereal

You can divide these up in to 7 equal amounts(so take 0.5 teaspoons of KNO3 x 3 = 1.5 teaspoons/7 days= 0.21 teaspoons KNO3 per day) and dose daily if you want, or 2-3x a week. Your choice.

The 50% weekly water prevents anything from building up.
The routine additions prevent anything from running out.

There is nothing complicated about it.
Chemicals, schmemicals...........so what....baking soda is "sodium bicarbonate", but folks still use it without placing such chemical phobias up in their way.

You add only 4 things.
These are dirt cheap.
The method is simple effective and focuses you on CO2 and then you end up with a ton of plants and no algae.

Still have algae?
95% of the time, you needed more CO2.
EI rules out deficiency issues and we know excesses don't cause algae.
So all that is left?
CO2.

That's the only fair way to analyze algae induced nutrient causes, you have to rule out the other possible factors and see. Otherwise the algae is being caused by both poor CO2, no plant growth/NH4 uptake and Fe.
Not just Fe.



Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[fish_4_all]

Well my point was that the excess iron caused the plants to grow at full capacity and used up my nitrates which bottomed them out for the first time and caused the algae bloom but that is ok. Just trying to be a pain in the neck.

I only have 10 gallon tanks so fire away, I can take that to any other tank size. A dosing schedule that I can impliment at the next water change, Saturday or sunday. I don't mind algae one bit but not in big blooms and definately not hair algae! Just let me know and i will give it a try. From your experience, I should never have to worry about that dreaded deficiency word again. I just have to rely on my ability to do it.

Hopfully I can keep my CO2 at or above 30ppm with DIY, unless you think it needs to be higher?