Substrate (yes, another thread)

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I will hopefully soon be setting up a 125Gal (72x18x22) with the following

Fluval 304 (existing, strictly mechanical filtration)
Custom filter, (from DIY section, thread of mine)
Milwaukee All-in-one
Milwaukee SMS122 Controller
6 ODNO 4' T8's (~64w/bulb for 384w)or just over 3WPG
15lbs of Mopani

Now for the Substrate I want sand, but also want the benefit of eco type substrate. so I'm thinking 1 bag Eco-complete, 2 bags Flourite and 160-240lbs of sand.. do you think this will work? or am I wasting the 100$ on eco type substrates? the sand is a heavier sand (larger grain)

 

[Hoovercat]

It's been said that anything less than ~60% eco in a substrate pretty much negates the benefits you'll see from having it. I think the same would probably hold true for flourite. If you want sand, use sand. You'll have to add root tabs until the tank's been established a while (a year or so) and you have to make sure sand gets stirred (MTS) but it's quite do-able.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

What about using Onyx sand, @ 4 bags (61.6lbs), 160 lbs Sand and supplimenting with root tabs, it will reduce the buffering capacity of onyx and provide a bit of support. and should reduce the building time... (my tap KH is 4, so I don't think a slight buffer will cause a problem.)

MTS might cause a problem with the loaches, but time will tell I suppose. I can get them for free from someone at the LFS that's having a problem with them.

 

[crazycat]

if your clowns are only 1", you shuldn't have that much of a problem keeping mts--as long as they're on the big side. it's when the loaches get bigger that they can get ALL the snails!

 

[dafrimpster]

Have you checked out Turface or Soilmaster for a substrate choice?

 

[malkore]

what kind of 'sand' are you thinking of? Cuz playsand..the really fine grained stuff...isn't worth a crap for a planted tank. it compacts and doesn't hold nutrients, and ends up killing plant roots, and thus the plants die too. Even with MTS, this kind of sand is a bad idea.

The finest sand you should look at is 'pool filter sand'. Its much coarser in size...larger than sugar grains or ground coffee, roughly the size of the head of a common straight pin.
Its still relatively cheap though.

If you're not going to use at least 50% eco complete or flourite, I wouldn't even bother using those plant substrates. They'll be too diluted to provide any substantial nutrient retention in the substrate.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

It's masonry sand (used in concrete mix), It's a mixture of pebble sized rocks (about 1cm tops) with 2-3mm size sand grains. It would be comparable to pool filter sand (not fine at all)

Is there anything I can add to kickstart the substrate? I haven't looked into laterite, is this an option with a coarse sand?

 

[Simpte]

Turface and cover it with sand. 3 bags of turface (or soilmaster if you can get it) will run ~40.00.

 

[malkore]

Laterite is basically always an option. However it does have to be replaced every year or so (the box will have the details). I've never used it.

Root tabs are a way to help seed the substrate a bit. I prefer to roll my own cheaply, rather than pay for seachem tabs. Seachem is good, but $5 locally for 10 tabs, which is about enough for a 29gallon tank for 3-5 months.

I can make mine for pennies.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Thanks, I'll look for Turface, Soilmaster (I hear this is US only), Schultz soil conditioner is also supposed to be the same as Turface.

I'll check at some local nurseries.

 

[AlexPerez]

Don't forget depending on how much uprooting/moving and type of plants you have, Layered substrates tend to get all mixed up over time. I no longer do layers cause I mess around with my plants way to much.

 

[sherry]

Take a looki at Cats newly refurbished tank .. thread here... she mixed eco with flourite and the result is really nice. Of course that means springing for the eco, but if you can do it, it is well worth it.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

It's not so much "springing for the Eco", eco and flourite are equally priced/lb up here, but @ 2$/lb it adds up fast in a 125Gal tank. assume 150lbs (low side) that's 300$ for substrate that I could get the equiv. sand (160lbs) for 8$.. where do you draw a line between shear cost and practicality? If I can add 40$ of product to the sand to give it a head start, then I'm still only at 48$, a savings of 252$ (and possibly my life if wife saw that bill)..

 

[sherry]

lol I do hear you...

but I look at it this way. we end up putting so much time and money into these tanks, between plants, fish ect... that something like the substrate which is sooo visible and cna make so much of a difference is worth the initial investment..

also changing substrate on a 125 would be hell.

but then again, Im' broke for a reason

 

[malkore]

Eco complete doesn't naturally have much in the way of nutrients, and flourite is really just iron rich.
Both are good substrates because they hold nutrients introduced to them, and make them easily accessible to plant roots.
That is why using less than 50% is pointless...you don't get the nutrient transport properties concentrated enough to be beneficial.

For a 125gal tank, you'd need at least 10 bags of eco or flourite, probably closer to 12-14 to give you the proper depth. Expensive, yes. Aquariumplants.com apparently has it on sale right now though.

 

[czcz]

You can "kickstart" the substrate by putting mulm and a little peat under it.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Thank you, Seems like a doable option. I can get peat plates, and I can get plenty of dead leaves

I may still pick up a couple bags of Onyx just to see how it does (3 or so) mixed with the sand, it contains

Concentration of nutrients in Onyx Sand™
Aluminum 822
Barium 5
Calcium 197500
Cobalt 4
Chromium 10
copper 4
Iron 2846
Potassium 417
Magnesium 115400
Manganese 43
Sodium 135
Nickel 7
Vanadium 8
Zinc 23

Units=mg/kg, source: Plasma Emission Spectrometer, EPA Method 3050, Univ. of Georgia Chemical Analysis Lab

Cut and pasted from Seachem's page.

 

[czcz]

As a tip, peat plates came up when I uprooted crypta. It is interesting how long it takes for them to break down. I use sphagnum peat moss now, and find it easy to do "light dusting" as a bottom layer as recommended by others. No issues. Cheap and it also makes my houseplants look great. HTH

 

[greenmaji]

Im kinda currious about your ODNO.. two power leads each? or all four? assuming 4-F32T8 ballasts.. and if your going to be using 2-F32T8 ballasts your numbers make alot more sence

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I'll be putting 2 ballasts in each fixture. I worked otu the cost for the light levels.

3 4' fixtures 90$
3 extra ballasts 75$
bulbs 18-22$
so it's under 200$ and I already have 1 fixture anyway. (386w)

CF from Canada. 3 x 2'x2 65w = 483$ for 390w
or 2 x 3'x2 96w = 474$

So it's obviously cheaper, and replacing bulbs is way cheaper too, so I don't really care if they die after 6 months. I can buy a box of 10 for about 20$.

just 2x ODNO, I don't want to push it to 4xODNO.

Travis had mentioned this in another thread and I didn't know you could do it, after a bit of research there is really nothing to it.

Thanks for the heads up about the plates, I've never tried them, but peat fiber is very easy to get aswell. Peat granules are easy to get aswell, but I have concerns of them floating up through the substrate with the loaches digging around.