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Old 01-06-2014, 10:21 PM   #41
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So you do Paypal......Hmmm....Maybe we need to set up an account. LOL

Where to start? Let's go the easy way.....feeding. I feed my breeder fish the following. In the a.m., I feed Omega one Freshwater Tropical fish flakes. In the afternoon, I feed freeze dried Tubifex worms. In the evening, I feed frozen brine shrimp. I add Acurel vitamins occasionally directly to the tanks. In the past, I kept a feeder cone of live tubifex worms in every breeder tank but they have become harder to come by where I am at so I switched to F.D. The reason I do this in this order is so that IF the FD worms become constipating, the brine shrimp is mainly roughage so it cleans the fish out. It must be working cause the tanks have a load of fish crap in them! I've never heard of the foods you mentioned but that doesn't mean they are bad. You basically want higher protein foods with at least 1 feeding of intestinal cleaning foods. High protein for all 3 meals can lead to a problem. Think of it like you eating steak every meal and never having a salad. At some point, you will be backed up. If you don;t like the brine shrimp idea, try Daphnia...same thing for roughage.

Yes, medicated foods can have effects on the eggs. If you are feeding a medicated food, you may not need to run any experiments cause that's most likely your problem. Back in the 80s when my hatchery got the first round of Angelfish AIDS, it took a lot of medications to finally find one that would save the fish but the result was that the fish were sterile for more than 6 months. My partner had kept one pair we had saved and he did get viable fry again but it was only after a looooooooooooooooooong time of good clean living.

Now to the experiment: If you don;t have distilled, you can try the snow ( do I need to tell you to melt it and heat it before using it?) or the spring water or the Betta water. (Just not YOUR water.) Don't be concerned yet with the KH and GH but try to use whichever water is closest to the readings of your breeder's tankwater. Just make sure the PH is on the acidic side. Try not to have too much of a difference tho. In my case, the eggs went from 6.5 tank water to 6.0 rain water. The more acidic, the longer it takes for the eggshells to harden.

Carbon, never had a problem with Hole in the Head due to carbon. I've kept many a display tank with Angels and carbon in the filter without ever having HIH disease. (I've been told that it's more a dietary and environmental difficiency that brings this on. I keep good tanks, What can I say ) I don;t usually use it on my breeders but that's because I use sponge filters. It's only recently that I found a carbon filled cartridge that I could adapt to my sponge filter's tube that I am using it in the fry tanks. Guess we'll have to see.

The water choices: for now, use the distilled from the shelf. It will be 0 GH and KH which is what we are after at the moment. You can substitute the spring water if it has a GH of less than 3 drops.

Okay, let's see, that's about 10 years worth of information......$12K/ year salary I earned during those 10 years ( I was very young when I learned this stuff.)....... Add the time it took to read your post at my current salary base.........carry the 2........... add the 5..........OKAY, your total for this help is..............Just sign a blank check and I'll fill in the number

BTW: You could have been nice and kept that cold weather up your way!!! I had to wrap each tank in styrofoam cause we are going below freezing tonight and my tanks are outside And to top it all off, I had a new pair of fish spawn while I was wrapping the tanks. Had to wait till they were done to pull the eggs. It's the male's first spawn but the female's 5th or 6th so who knows what will come of it?
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:53 PM   #42
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Finally, here's the videos of my Marble fry, using the pure rain water experiment. The first one will be the spawn. The second starts with the hatched fry as examples of what free swimming fry should look like.
Attached Files
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:18 PM   #43
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We joke, but I WOULD pay for this valuable info! You SHOULD set up an account....even if just for tokens of appreciation!
I'm really trying to shut up....just a few last questions...
Angelsplus said the antibacterial and metro laced foods shouldn't have any effect (I called them), but I tend to think you're right. The mom wasn't even trying with the last spawn....as if she knew it wasn't happening. This time she's pulling white ones within minutes, and has been on healthy foods for weeks. If she were "sterile", I wouldn't get swimmers at all....would I?
I'm still pulling the eggs. I have the pair divided off, but an angel on the other side of the divider has camallanus worms. Thought I killed em all, but got to shed a few tears when I saw one again a moment ago. Can things like ich, flukes, worms, etc in the water effect the eggs? Is it too late for the 10 hour old eggs if I remove them now (if it's a parasite thing versus a water thing? The divided parents look perfect and healthy. But, the angels on the other side have pasty gill covers, and they've had the recurring missing scales. Now, I see this worm.,,.grrrrr.

I am pulling the eggs from the other (parasite free tank) now...and putting them in snow. Oh PLEASE let me at least get answers...if not swimming babies! (Yes, I figured I'd need to melt and prime the snow....but spelling things out DOES tend to save me quite a bit of lost chances, so thx). I must be the most unlucky fish keeper alive! I try TOO hard, spend too much (and yes make too many mistakes), but it's cause I want to do well sooo badly! I've seen baby angel fry swimming! BEAUTIFUL! I want to see them grow!
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:21 AM   #44
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I'll take tokens for now. My fee for teaching all the things I know is way out of site. I get few takers when I tell them my fee ( Hey, I could have retired, in my 30s!, on just the money I spent over the years learning about keeping fish

To your questions: NO, parasites will not effect the eggs as the eggs do not have the materials yet the parasites need to survive. The Parasite MEDICATION however can have an effect. Since we are not sure if it's your water or your fish, that's why we are eliminating your water with these experiments. Can't move forward until one thing is ruled out. If it's the fish, then we need to see if it's the genes or the meds in the fish. One thing at a time

Correct, if she or the male were sterile, there would be no hatchings. However, they don;t need to be sterile to be having problems.

This recurring disease problem you are having is really making me think either the tank is dirty or the water's no good. Fish don;t usually come down with problems in good clean environments. It could also be YOU ( no offense.) You may be killing them with kindness. Too much stuff going on and it's making the fish sick. I'm not there so I don't know. (Shrug) But something's going on in there and breeding is not what should be in the forefront with these situations.
You may want to check out this article on proper and best meds for these worms: Camallanus Worm | Fishfully Thinking

I think that covers everything.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:56 PM   #45
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I agree. No argument on any of it (except dirty tank....not possible...too clean maybe...). I'm biting the bullet. I'm purchasing an RO machine TODAY. I will post in a diff section also, but wanted your opinion. I'm told different RO machines are better/worse, cause they filter differently. I'm FAR from rich, but i spend way more on buying water, and fixing problems, so.... What brand is best (with the least pain to my pocket)? For a soft water breeding tank, what do I need to add back to the water? Can I just do kent RO right? Replenish? Which is best? Seachem told me I needed to get acid/alkaline buffers for kh, replenish for gh, do water tests until I get the numbers I want, and add to tank. I'm afraid, but honestly....it's prolly easier than the madhouse I have going right now.
(I pulled the 40g eggs in 10 min, put them in melted snow and prime, m.blue, airstone, heat adjusted to 79-80. Looks good so far. I woke to only 60 not-white eggs left in main tank. The Mom pulled most the dead, and my covered leaf looks pathetically clean. Had an emergency last night, so was planning to pull today. Too little, too late. I'm convinced the water is messing up the egg shell. I tested, and somehow, my gh was 9....when it's usually 6-8 tops. If I pulled the 60, and put them in gh less than 3....it would be too much of a difference, and would kill them right? I know you prefer to talk "ph", but the colors are so darn similar, I can't get an accurate reading.
Either way, I have the other pairs eggs in snow (kh-3, gh-1....it was all 0 last night, so you must be right about prime adding something). I'm taking careful notes. Just set me straight on the best RO machine, and what to use to get the correct gh, kh, ph. Thx.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:57 PM   #46
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I agree. No argument on any of it (except dirty tank....not possible...too clean maybe...). I'm biting the bullet. I'm purchasing an RO machine TODAY. I will post in a diff section also, but wanted your opinion. I'm told different RO machines are better/worse, cause they filter differently. I'm FAR from rich, but i spend way more on buying water, and fixing problems, so.... What brand is best (with the least pain to my pocket)? For a soft water breeding tank, what do I need to add back to the water? Can I just do kent RO right? Replenish? Which is best? Seachem told me I needed to get acid/alkaline buffers for kh, replenish for gh, do water tests until I get the numbers I want, and add to tank. I'm afraid, but honestly....it's prolly easier than the madhouse I have going right now.
(I pulled the 40g eggs in 10 min, put them in melted snow and prime, m.blue, airstone, heat adjusted to 79-80. Looks good so far. I woke to only 60 not-white eggs left in main tank. The Mom pulled most the dead, and my covered leaf looks pathetically clean. Had an emergency last night, so was planning to pull today. Too little, too late. I'm convinced the water is messing up the egg shell. I tested, and somehow, my gh was 9....when it's usually 6-8 tops. If I pulled the 60, and put them in gh less than 3....it would be too much of a difference, and would kill them right? I know you prefer to talk "ph", but the colors are so darn similar, I can't get an accurate reading.
Either way, I have the other pairs eggs in snow (kh-3, gh-1....it was all 0 last night, so you must be right about prime adding something). I'm taking careful notes. Just set me straight on the best RO machine, and what to use to get the correct gh, kh, ph. Thx.
You see, this may be part of the problem: You are moving forward without the right or completed information. There's no sense in getting an RO machine if your water is not a good thing to use. To soften the water, I just use the API softening pillow and my water goes down to needing only 1 drop for a reaction. That cost me $6.99. How much will an RO filter cost you?
I suggest you figure out IF your water is the problem before you make any kind of investment for water treatment. The way to do that is to have a successful outcome without using your water followed by having a disaster outcome using your water.
BE PATIENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:47 PM   #47
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Okay. I'm listening. Sorry. I'll wait
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Old 01-16-2014, 01:45 PM   #48
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Okay, angels laid eggs 3 days ago. I pulled them 10 min after they finished. I put them in a 2.5g with heater and 12 drops of m.blue. Angels laid on a fake leaf. I removed the entire fake plant. Air stone was placed so air is 1/2 inch or less from the egg covered side of the leaf, and some come up the back of the leaf....so it kinda sways....but it's keeping it erect. I used 2/3 bottled spring water / 1/3 distilled with prime. Only 3 turned white. I now have 300+ wigglers! (Only time I've ever had this many is when they swam for 3 days). I'm trying to follow directions exactly, so please forgive me if I repeat a question for clarity sake....
1. Do I now turn down the bubbles? A few wigglers have fallen off.
2. I still don't do water changes until they swim? Other sites say start water changes when they wiggle....but I'm listening to you...,just verifying. Also, does the fact that the plant was covered in green algae change anything? I'm (as always) over worrying, I'm sure, but...the m. Blue killed algae, and a lot is at the bottom of the tank. If I don't remove it....won't dead algae cause ammonia, or too much waste, or anything? Or are the wigglers safe from all that until they swim?
3. Again, just verifying....whether you tell me to start water changes now....or wait till they swim, what water do I use for the changes? The kh of the tank before adding the eggs was 2. Gh- 4. I'm using all bottled water on the main tanks now too....(an experiment on the adults), but I use all spring for a little higher kh. So, spring or distilled?
4. On day 6 (after laid), I add sponge filter, correct? Do I need to use carbon to remove m.blue? Or just do daily WC's? (I know you answered this....just can't remember).
Thx. Really hoping this experiment is a success, so I'm sorry for asking the same old questions! I second guess myself, get confused, and really want to do this right. Thx
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:27 PM   #49
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Okay, angels laid eggs 3 days ago. I pulled them 10 min after they finished. I put them in a 2.5g with heater and 12 drops of m.blue. Angels laid on a fake leaf. I removed the entire fake plant. Air stone was placed so air is 1/2 inch or less from the egg covered side of the leaf, and some come up the back of the leaf....so it kinda sways....but it's keeping it erect. I used 2/3 bottled spring water / 1/3 distilled with prime. Only 3 turned white. I now have 300+ wigglers! (Only time I've ever had this many is when they swam for 3 days). I'm trying to follow directions exactly, so please forgive me if I repeat a question for clarity sake....
1. Do I now turn down the bubbles? A few wigglers have fallen off.
2. I still don't do water changes until they swim? Other sites say start water changes when they wiggle....but I'm listening to you...,just verifying. Also, does the fact that the plant was covered in green algae change anything? I'm (as always) over worrying, I'm sure, but...the m. Blue killed algae, and a lot is at the bottom of the tank. If I don't remove it....won't dead algae cause ammonia, or too much waste, or anything? Or are the wigglers safe from all that until they swim?
3. Again, just verifying....whether you tell me to start water changes now....or wait till they swim, what water do I use for the changes? The kh of the tank before adding the eggs was 2. Gh- 4. I'm using all bottled water on the main tanks now too....(an experiment on the adults), but I use all spring for a little higher kh. So, spring or distilled?
4. On day 6 (after laid), I add sponge filter, correct? Do I need to use carbon to remove m.blue? Or just do daily WC's? (I know you answered this....just can't remember).
Thx. Really hoping this experiment is a success, so I'm sorry for asking the same old questions! I second guess myself, get confused, and really want to do this right. Thx
Congrats Now we're getting somewhere!
For the time being, I want you to only use the water mixture you used to hatch the eggs in. No water changes tho until you start feeding the fry. When the egg sacs look almost depleted (which means the fry will be free swimming within the next day or 2) use a small bag of carbon to remove the M.Blue. I am using a carbon ball about the size of a golf ball to remove blue from 1 gal jars in 24 hours so you shouldn't need anything much bigger than that. At this point, you should start the brine shrimp eggs as well unless you have frozen baby brine for the free swimming babies.

Keep in mind that the experiment is far from over. These fry now need to become free swimming in order to eliminate the genetics as the problem. Obviously, this water combination you used is a good water for hatching them out and should be good for growing them out. Let's get them to that stage
I am correct, aren't I, that you are not using any water from your house. Right?

Now to your other questions. No, don't do anything with the air. If anything, as the fry grow and start to swim and eat, you may need to increase the air. Just hold off doing anything at the moment.
Using PRIME in the water when you add your water will detoxify any ammonia so it's not an issue. Once the Blue is gone, do an ammonia test and it should be 0 or something on the low scale. If it's above a safe zone, use PRIME as directed straight into the fry tank.

If you have a sponge filter going in a main tank, you can shift it into the fry tank once the fry are free swimming. This will add an additional source of potential food for the fry. Don't stop doing what you are doing when you add the sponge. You are "adding to" with the filter not "replacing what's already there". ( This may help you eliminate needing to up your air If you haven't started a sponge filter yet, do so now and place it in the fry tank when the time is right.

That's it. I am doing exactly the same thing with eggs from 2 new pairs of fish and I have wigglers and free swimmers. The free swimmers came from a pair where the male was a first time spawner. The second pair is with another first time spawning male but had a very high hatch rate ( quite unusual for a first timer) and hopefully those fry will be free swimming in a couple of days. Both pairs have experienced females.

Keep it going and keep me posted. If you need immediate help, call me.
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:40 PM   #50
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Thx Andy. So, just for my knowledge....because I get all uptight and worried about ammonia due to algae.....are the wigglers "protected" until the hatch? Or do you just think there's no ammonia? Prime protects for 24 hours, right? I understood the instructions for the sponge filter, and that prime conditioning the daily water change water will protect them once swimming. Just want to make sure they get to that point. I'm doing what you say... I just worry (everyone else says start 50% WCs after they wiggle, but everyone else has been wrong about quite a few different things, whereas you are 99% right, 99% of the time, so I'm gonna stick with what you say ).
No water used from my home. Only bottled spring and bottled distilled. I will do my best to shut up until they swim, or something occurs. 😳! Only 2 wigglers turned white so far. Is it normal for wigglers to die also? They turn white just like the eggs do....and there's no real rhyme or reason why.
The black/gold pair are cleaning their fav leaf, so I'm guessing I'll have another batch to play with in a day or 2. What was the next water combo I should try? I want to try different things to see what works. Should I try straight distilled with them? (This batch will be the ones from the parent who ate anti-biotic food. It was months ago, but that and her genetics may very well be the issue). Should I try the same water mix as the marble pair (currently wiggling)? If I do the exact same mix, and the marble eggs live, but the black/gold don't....it would mean it was the parents, right? So....what do you suggest? Same or different water mix for her eggs?
Just a side thought....in case your other theory, that the problem is my messing with the water vs the actual water, is correct, would it be worth it (for the sake of the experiment, and my sanity) to put a batch of eggs in straight tap water with prime....to see what happened? It would be great to not have to mix water anymore! I have asked around my town....and the only successful angelfish breeders use RO machines, so it might really be the water that's the problem. But, I also believe the folks that claim the angels will adapt to any water.. So.,,,the actual question in the midst of my rambling is: do eggs that come from parent angelfish who are in a soft water tank, and spend the first 10 min of their "fertilized lives" in that soft water tank, need to stay in the same type of water? Or...if I pulled them right away, would they just start out in harder water, and adapt? I'm not trying this now, I just wondered for the future...(if I am successful, and I get hundreds of babies every few weeks, that's going to be quite expensive to keep buying bottled water for even more tanks).
Thx for all your help! I bet your fry will be beautiful! Make sure to post pics
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Old 01-18-2014, 12:47 AM   #51
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Thx Andy. So, just for my knowledge....because I get all uptight and worried about ammonia due to algae.....are the wigglers "protected" until the hatch? Or do you just think there's no ammonia? Prime protects for 24 hours, right? I understood the instructions for the sponge filter, and that prime conditioning the daily water change water will protect them once swimming. Just want to make sure they get to that point. I'm doing what you say... I just worry (everyone else says start 50% WCs after they wiggle, but everyone else has been wrong about quite a few different things, whereas you are 99% right, 99% of the time, so I'm gonna stick with what you say ).
No water used from my home. Only bottled spring and bottled distilled. I will do my best to shut up until they swim, or something occurs. ��! Only 2 wigglers turned white so far. Is it normal for wigglers to die also? They turn white just like the eggs do....and there's no real rhyme or reason why.
The black/gold pair are cleaning their fav leaf, so I'm guessing I'll have another batch to play with in a day or 2. What was the next water combo I should try? I want to try different things to see what works. Should I try straight distilled with them? (This batch will be the ones from the parent who ate anti-biotic food. It was months ago, but that and her genetics may very well be the issue). Should I try the same water mix as the marble pair (currently wiggling)? If I do the exact same mix, and the marble eggs live, but the black/gold don't....it would mean it was the parents, right? So....what do you suggest? Same or different water mix for her eggs?
Just a side thought....in case your other theory, that the problem is my messing with the water vs the actual water, is correct, would it be worth it (for the sake of the experiment, and my sanity) to put a batch of eggs in straight tap water with prime....to see what happened? It would be great to not have to mix water anymore! I have asked around my town....and the only successful angelfish breeders use RO machines, so it might really be the water that's the problem. But, I also believe the folks that claim the angels will adapt to any water.. So.,,,the actual question in the midst of my rambling is: do eggs that come from parent angelfish who are in a soft water tank, and spend the first 10 min of their "fertilized lives" in that soft water tank, need to stay in the same type of water? Or...if I pulled them right away, would they just start out in harder water, and adapt? I'm not trying this now, I just wondered for the future...(if I am successful, and I get hundreds of babies every few weeks, that's going to be quite expensive to keep buying bottled water for even more tanks).
Thx for all your help! I bet your fry will be beautiful! Make sure to post pics
Here's the thing, even if you take brand new water and put in new fish (properly stocked), with no filter and fed them normally, it would take about a week before there were any substantial amount of ammonia being produced. If your algae is on the tank bottom and the wigglers aren't there, siphon it out if you are concerned. ( This is why I prefer slate or rock for them to spawn on, they clean it all before spawning.)

Angelfish eggs and fry are protected by NOTHING!!!!! This is why you have to have the right water for them to hatch in then become free swimming fry in. Once they are feeding, THEN you can acclimate them to another water type HOWEVER, changes in water chemistry need to be slow or the fry will not survive. It may come down to the fact that your tap water is no good for your fry. THAT is the experiment we are running. There are 3 steps to this: hatching them out, getting them free swimming, then putting some in your tap water and some in bottled water or another water source not from your house. You are only at step 1.

At this point, since your fry have not become free swimmers yet, YES, by using the same water type that the other eggs hatched in and if the other fish's eggs don;t hatch, that would be a good indicator that the problem is most likely with the pair. HOWEVER, since your fry have not become free swimming yet, there is not PROOF that the water you used was the right water for that pair's eggs. Any experiment with different water types needs to be done on the same pair's eggs. (For example: pair #1's eggs hatched and grew or did better or had a higher hatch percentage in water type #1 than in water type #2 or water type #3.) Since your eggs have hatched in the water you used, I'd use that again for the other pair but you still need to run the entire experiment to make any conclusive conclusions.

I will tell you what I was told when I first moved to Florida and had problems breeding my fish after being very success at it in New jersey: " This is FLORIDA and our water ain't New Jersey water." Once I figured how to adapt my methods to the new water, I became a successful breeder in FLORIDA too. So unless the people you are listening to or reading about are using the same source water that you are, from your house, I don't give a "Rat's Behind" what they are doing. They are not dealing with your situation. I'm trying to help you figure out what your situation is.

Finally, it's nature's way for animals that have multiple offspring to not have them all survive. Yes, eggs die, wigglers die, fry die, fish die. Sometimes, there's nothing you can do to change that. As I've previously said, for me, if I get 100 to 150 fry from egg to salable size, I consider the spawn a success. You know the fish laid more than 100 -150 eggs. The rest is just natural. You just have to do the best you can, give the fish the best opportunity to survive and then hope for the best. It's out of your hands.

Keep me posted
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Old 01-19-2014, 09:33 PM   #52
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Agreed! 110%! We all know how aggravated I get when people tell me "it's fine"....when I KNOW something isn't right! So, again....your help is GREATLY appreciated. Thank you for explaining the ammonia taking a week to do any real harm. I feel better. Except...on day 4, (after 1 day of obvious wiggling without a magnifying glass), 10 wigglers went white for no apparent reason. Is this normal? I know only a percentage survive, but very few eggs turned white, so I was kinda shocked to come home to so many dead. If it is normal, I just leave them...right? I'm not comfortable touching the water at all, as it might mess up the results of my experiment (I'm sure you'll be thrilled to hear I don't WANT to mess with it)! Lol. So....I have hundreds of wigglers, and 13 dead scattered in weird places (not next to each other....so hopefully that means the m. Blue is doing it's job and preventing fungus from spreading)....with algae at the bottom and on the leaves (it's the blue/green algae...and now I'm scaring myself because I read that's the "bad kind"....and supposedly is a bacteria, not an algae, and comes in unfiltered water....could this be part of my water issue? Or killing the fry? ....hey, I had to worry about something, since things are going well so far...) and I'm also questioning my bubble speed. Can it be too strong? I was doing my 500th video of them wiggling, and saw 2 fall off. The ones on the edge of the leaf go straight out, pulled to a 90 degree angle by the bubble flow. When I've left the eggs with the parents, they move the wigglers right after hatching to a new location, and stop fanning them. From the hatching point to free swimming, they just catch falling wigglers, and return them to the others. I'm sure things are different with an air stone doing the fanning, but should I Turn it down a little?

Update on the black/gold pair's eggs: I hadn't yet gotten your response, and used the "betta water" that tests at gh:2, kh:2. SOFT!!! I put it in an empty betta 1/2g tank with heater, m.blue and airstone. Ready for this....I was so concerned with getting the eggs out within 10 min of spawning, I took them before they were done. So, I have 2 day old eggs (only 1 white so far) in the little tank, and about 100 in the main tank (0 white). This is the pair whose fry swam for 3 days. It's also the pair most likely to have genetic problems (the female's black...probably inbred..., her eggs are much smaller than the other 2 pair's eggs, and she was fed anti-biotic food at one point). So, I am making tons of notes, and trying to track everything. I will have lots of data, but I will probably need you to tell me what it all means if any fry survive. And...if they don't. This is also the pair with 4 spawns under their belts, that were almost successful at first, but had very few even wiggle the last time around. So, I guess the biggest comparisons will be based on them. (Side note: I read that malachite green will kill eggs/fry, and I was using paragard on the main tank a few days before the last spawn. Hopefully, that was a big part of the problem. This time, the parents were fed a variety diet, no meds, and most of the eggs are in water softer than the tank, with 0 of my crap tap water.
Summary:
Marble pair: 2nd spawn. (5 day old wigglers. 13 dead. No water changes 😩. Lol. In spring water with prime. I haven't tested anything, because I DONT TOUCH! 😳. Blue/green algae on leaves and bottom of tank.
Black / gold: 200+ eggs in betta water. 1 dead. Very little light green algae on leaf. 100 in main tank. 0 dead. (Oh, I did switch my main tank over to spring/distilled bottled water also. The experiment will hopefully prove what I already believe....my water has too much bad stuff in it. At the end of this, if we determine the water is the problem, I'm getting an RO machine, and need advice on buffers. If we deem the water here "okay", I'll slowly add back with water changes). But, as you said, I'm still at step 1.
So, except possibly lowering the bubble speed, I just wait and hope they swim? I started BBS, and have frozen if necessary. Anything else I missed?
If these do (oh please oh please oh please) swim, what is step 2? If it's getting them to eat, what is step 3? I'm asking, so I'm sure to have everything I need. For this experiment, will they just keep swimming...or not....and that's it?
Thanks again Andy. Sorry this is so long. There's just soooo many, and I really want this to work. It's killing me not to do water changes, but you haven't led me astray so far! Thanks!!!!
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Old 01-19-2014, 09:42 PM   #53
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I will keep this second post short...
1. I think I just figured out the "water changes immediately after the eggs hatch" that all the hatcheries do....it's not to remove ammonia, but to remove the m. Blue, right?? So, I'm as always, worrying for nothing, because I will be using carbon to remove it when they swim....right? Oh, I love when something finally clicks! Will I need to time the carbon to the day before swimming? Or since I don't know how things will go exactly, they'll be okay if I use it after I see them start swimming? (Are you ever wrong? Lol)
And, just in case I'm off on my schedule, could too hard bubble stream hurt swimmers? Do I turn that down when they swim, if not sooner?
Thx again!
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:05 PM   #54
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So sorry I haven't given you an opportunity to respond to my first question, before asking another...but an interesting, sad update on the black/gold eggs.....there are still not any white eggs in the main tank, but 1/3 of the pulled eggs turned white! What in the world does that mean???? I used the betta water from Petsmart. I guess I can rule this water out as an option, since they're dying....but the same batch that were left in the main tank are fine? I know the moms genes are a possible problem, but the main tank eggs would be dying too if that were the issue, right? I have 2 thoughts on what went wrong:
1. The water was toooo soft?
2. It was pre-conditioned, so I didn't use prime....could prime have made a difference?
I'll wait to hear your thoughts, but please tell me what to do. I'll be pretty bummed if they all die, and I don't really know why. (Kinda glad some got left in the main tank, so I didn't automatically assume it was the mom. If the main tank eggs die also, it probably is. But, if they live....what did I learn?)
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Old 01-21-2014, 12:12 PM   #55
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In the marble's wiggler tank: I have a few swimming, many jumping, and a whole lot of dead white ones. What is my next step? I have not touched the tank. When do I put the carbon in to take out the m.blue? When do I feed? And, when do I change water? (At this point, I use the same spring/distilled mix right)? Do I wait until ALL are swimming? Or start now that some are swimming? And, when can I remove all that white dead crap? I can see fuzz coming off some of it, so I'm scared it will kill more. Thanks so much Andy! So far, I'm still doing better than any previous attempt.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:11 AM   #56
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WOW!!! So much to deal with Where to start
Let's start with the dead eggs vs the live ones still with the parents. It's either the water or the setup. Unless the eggs in with the parents poop out too, then it would most likely be a genetics issue. Thankfully you have 2 parts of the same spawn to compare results
Now, starting from the top:
A few dead wigglers from a spawn of a couple hundred eggs is not really an issue yet. Id a lot more die, then we have an issue. For now, don;t worry. Just use the siphon hose and siphon the dead ones out of the tank or bottle.

Your Blue Green Algae: Who told you it was blue/green algae? And that it was toxic to the fish? Yes some blue/green algaes can be toxic but they are rarely found in a well filtered aquarium. Green algaes will flourish when you add a food source (Nitrogen) and and light source together. That's just green algae not blue green algae. I'd google that and see what real blue green algae looks like. Either way, I suggested you test the water with all the "dead" algae in it to see if it was polluting the water. You can siphon that stuff out of the bottom as well.

As for how high for the bubbles, you want a medium flow. Not too high or too low. I'll try to get a video of my bottles when I return from my trip tomorrow. Just remember, these fry have a string that as long as the current in the tank doesn't prevent them from sticking onto something, you should be fine.

You guessed the magic potion! Water changes in the beginning are to remove the blue not ammonia as the eggs don;t produce ammonia so there's no reason to change water due to that. Carbon does the same thing and in your case, the least amount of change is what you need. As for when to put it in, you can use it anywhere from day 3 to day 7. Once the eggs hatch, you are now using it to prevent whatever eggs that didn;t hatch from getting all fungusy. The m. blue will kill of any live food you feed the fry so you want it gone before they start swimming. It literally only takes a few hours for my golfball size bag of carbon to eliminate all the blue out of a 1 gal jar so it doesn't take long. Just use fresh, unused carbon.

As for Am I ever wrong? Not frequently LOL Of course I'm wrong from time to time. Just not with fish

As for using the Betta water and it being too soft? I'm using rain water or water that I soften with a pillow. I get a GH of 1 drop. THAT'S SOFT!!! And I have success with the eggs so the softness is not an issue for now. As for the Betta water, I don;t know what they put into it to know if the PRIME would have solved anything. Try to use non pre conditioned water next time and condition it yourself. This way you will know what's in the water.

As for what did you learn, if the fry live with the parents and the eggs you removed from the parents die off, then you can assume the egg hatching setup is wrong and needs to be corrected. If both die at about the same time, you can assume the problem is genetic. If the fry with the parents live but don;t become free swimming, you can assume the problem is with the parents at this point since you changed the tank water to spring water.

ON your marbles, use the carbon now. You should be feeding them live food once they become free swimming as I showed you in the video. The jumping around is usually the first stage of free swimming but if that lasts more than a day, there is something wrong with the fry. It most likely will not be a water issue but can be an age problem or a genetic problem.

Lastly, here's the thing about your water and the R/O filter. What we are trying to determine is if your water is the problem or the fish are the problem. Even if we determine that your tap water is the problem, it doesn't mean that a R/O unit will fix the problem. It could be a problem with the H2O part of the water which the r/o unit won't deal with.
The first step is to get free swimming fry using no house water. Stage 2 is putting those fry into your house water to see how they do.
This is a process so you need to have patience. It's a process of elimination. You have to have success and failure to eliminate things.

I think I covered it all. If I didn't Well there you go, I would be wrong about that
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:09 AM   #57
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Thx Andy. I didn't know you were out of town! Sorry. Ok, well, since I didn't hear back, I did nothing so far. So, I have more swimming, but not all of them. I hadn't removed any dead either 😳. Guess I missed that step. Despite the m.blue, the dead eggs and wigglers ARE fungusing, and I've watched a few live get stuck in it and die. Now, it's time for damage control, as obviously you can't leave me for a second without my messing something up. I was practicing "not touching", when I should have been siphoning. 😔. I'm hanging a ball of carbon over the side tonight. I REALLY hope there isn't some amount that's too much or little, cause I'm winging it. Actually, now I'm really worried, cause it's 3 am here. I can't leave carbon overnight right? Hmmmm, what to do... I'll at least siphon dead, and maybe hang carbon for 4 hours? Oh geez, I hope the longer time doesn't screw this up 😁. There are a lot of almost swimmers in there!
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:54 AM   #58
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Is there any way to test the h2o part of the water? My issues with the adults (and other fish) got worse when I turned off the bubbles. It induced spawning, so I never turned them back on (but I did add sponge filter to the side the pair is on). So, I where could I look up info on that?

The black gold eggs left with parents all turned into wigglers. The mom had moved them twice. But, I may have messed up the experiment. I started using the spring/distilled mix (at a greater spring ratio....for a higher kh/gh that matched the original water) right after you suggested it for the eggs. So, the main tank has little or no tap water by now also. Sorry! I was trying to help the adults too! I really do jump the gun, don't i? But, if the babies in the main tank do swim....what would that mean? That it was the water, and I just screwed something up pulling the others?

Marble wigglers: I ran carbon all night. There's still blue in the water. I cut a large carbon, filled one half with a golf ball sized amt of carbon and used a rubber band to seal. I tied it to a piece of airline tubing to float over the edge. Did I not use enough for a 2.5g tank? Should I leave it in there until all blue us gone? Just so I'm clear: I'm to feed them now? I have about 4 who've been swimming since yesterday. There are about 100 still on the floor, jumping and wiggling. About 20 of those only wiggle part of the time. (I think they're dead, then they move. Is this normal? Is there anything I can do to help them?) since it's been a week, I'm now concerned about ammonia again. I added a few drops of prime. Is that okay? Will the prime even work in M.Blue? I removed as many dead as I could with siphon. But, there are 2 large patches of white clumps of dead that have live wigglers next to, or connected to them. I was afraid to get live ones, so I left them. Could this be polluting the water, and why more wigglers slowly stop wiggling and turn white every day? I just don't understand why they keep dying? Does that usually happen? I'll be thrilled to get ANY survivors, but I really thought that since most of the eggs hatched, I'd be successful.
Finally, would vita-chem added to the tank help or hurt?
Thx again Andy!
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:53 PM   #59
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Okay, I really am stuck..... Can you see this
http://youtu.be/F8oxyJ1nnTw

If so, doesn't the orangish, yellow bellies on the wigglers closest to the camera indicate they still have their sacs feeding them? Yet, a couple have been swimming for over 24 hours! I'm really stuck on whether I should try feeding or not? There are also some on the other side of the tank that look as if their sacs are gone....but they just jump around a lot. I left the carbon in during work. The water still appears blue. Maybe the tank is just stained?
So....do I feed? How long do I give them to eat before removing any left over?
And....the one thing that has been consistent with each spawn (of all 3 pair), is that they go through the egg-wiggler stages as they are supposed to, and then something goes wrong. They either don't swim, or swim for a few days, and then sink. The parents are all angels that I raised from babies. So, I KNOW they're not too old. If there was something genetically wrong, they wouldn't hatch. Or at least, the same thing wouldn't happen with all 3 pairs offspring. So, other than the water, what are the reasons wigglers don't swim? I just feel like I'm missing some key ingredient....
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:43 PM   #60
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WOW, you really like to make things a challenge don;t you? lol

Okay, #1, there is no length of time that you can't keep the carbon in the tank. I told you, it takes my little golfball worth of carbon 24 hours to get rid of the blue in a 1 gal bottle. That's 24 STRAIGHT hours of it being in the tank. 4 hours at a clip won't do much good. Just leave it until the blue is gone (however long that takes.)

#2 Yes, you messed up one part of the experiment but you answered a question on another part so you lucked out. (maybe) The fact that the eggs hatched in the tank but not in the ones you separated tells me you are doing something wrong in your hatching set up with this spawn. That's THIS SPAWN not necessarily all spawns. A successful hatch of eggs in your hatch set up will eliminate everything you're doing as the problem. have you gotten to that point yet?

#3 You say the wigglers are coming down with fungus. Are you sure it's fungus? Fungus is a wooly appearance that attacks any part of the body. BACTERIAL diseases usually start at a fin edge or open wound and eat away the fish's flesh. In the M blue, the fungus should not be present. If this is happening while in M blue, your solution is either too old or too weak to be effective so the fungus can multiply in it.

#3A- You will need to test the water for ammonia and nitrate to see if any of those are present. If so, they could be the cause of death and not disease. Just using the 7 days I mentioned is an average not a specific. It can be quicker or it can take longer. Or it could not happen at all. Again, the PH determins whether any ammonia is even something to be concerned about. I have a bottle of approx 100 fry that have been in that same bottle since Jan. 1. 23 days!! I checked the PH just 2 days ago and it's 6.2. That means the ammonia is ammonium and not toxic to the fish so it doesn't matter what the ammonia reading is. The fish are producing their wings and growing albeit at a slower pace than if I had moved them into their larger tank ( Thank you so much Mr Polar Vortex!!! :s) It's because the water is good.

#4 Fry dying after hatching is not uncommon. It's a sign of a weak fish. They may have part of the 90% that were pre disposed to die anyway. Who knows? You can't bring them back from the dead so move on.

#5 Vita chem: I see no reason to use it. You can't get a finished solution with just the water so how can you get definitive answers if you add things to the water? I've never needed to add anything to the water (sans PRIME) so I doubt it would solve anything. I wouldn't use it for now.

#6 This may be the elephant in the room, I read on another thread that between the 3 pairs you have, you have had 10 spawns. That would mean you have only had about 3 spawns from each pair. Correct? Fish, especially Angelfish, having perfect fry after only 3 spawns is not all that common. AND it will all depend on the genetics of the parents. Case in point: I have 2 new pairs. Pair #1 is a Silver veil with a Gold Marble female. Pair #2 is a Zebra veil male with a Gold Female. I have 2 spawns in bottles, 1 from each pair. Pair #1 Male- first time spawning EVER. Female- was part of the trio so this was her 5th or 6th spawn with most of her spawns being by herself so hatch comparisons are not available. This spawn had a fairly low hatch percentage ( after having a high hatch potential for over 2 days) and were free swimming in just 4 days after hatching. The surviving fry are all swimming normally and feeding with no problems. Pair #2 Male-First spawn EVER, Female- 3rd time laying eggs. Once with another male and they ate them and once with the female from pair #1 so no hatch comparisons are available. This spawn has had a much higher hatch percentage but even now, 9 days later, not all of the wigglers are free swimming. Oddly, the larger fry still have evidence of a yolk sac and are bouncing around on the bottom ( sound familiar?) while the smaller ones just today are showing signs of being normal and although I did put in some live baby brine yesterday before I left on my trip, today would be the first day I would feed based on the condition and activity of the fry. That's 8 days after hatching. That's a drastic difference between these 2 pairs wouldn't you say? I can directly attribute this to the Silver's lineage. Not much was done to the line to get a silver veil. It's more closely related to the wild stock from which it originated. The other fish are further removed which is why their fry may be having the problems. It can't be the bottles because I have successfully hatched out eggs in these bottles and I used the same type of water on each spawn. PLUS, they were both spawned in the same tank. Bottom line, every fish is different.

#7- I could not make out the fry in the video. But the bottom line is that of they are not off the bottom and swimming around, they don;t need to be fed for 2 reasons: If they are not truly free swimming, they will most likely not eat and if they are "belly scrapers" you don't want them to continue so best they perish small and not after a longer time. It sounds cruel but it's not in your best interest to keep these fish. Let nature take it's course and just keep track because if this is a continual thing, you may want to split up that pair.

Here's the thing, it's best to take 1 pair and compare the one pair's successes and failures in order to keep accurate records. Because we don;t know if the problem is your water, trying to compare the results of 3 different pairs at the same time may cause more unanswered questions leading to more questions. You can do different experiments on each pair but you have to have successes and failures with each pair to be able to compare pair #1 to pair #2 and #3. As you found out with the split spawn, the fact that all the eggs you removed died showed something as the ones you didn't touch lived. Maybe you moved them too fast? maybe they didn;t have enough time to be fertilized? maybe I jumped the gun when I said the hatching method was incorrect? See? More questions than answers

As for your H2O, short of having the water tested chemically using gaschromatography ( big word, I know ) your best bet is to contact you water company and ask for a complete chemical breakdown of what they put in the water and what would and would not come out of the water should you use a R/O filter. ( FYI: I had a connection at the University of Miami who did my gaschromatographs for free { and we caught some interesting things that were being being sprayed in the air by our city gov't} when the usual price for a graph was $1,000.00 so it may not be an option for you )

Just keep at it.
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