Death, Death, and more Death.

[jarrod0987]

That is another variable I didn't consider. The dechlorinator I have does indeed also neutralize chloramine. But your comment brings up another good question for me. Is it possible to *** too much dechlorinator to my aquarium? If I double it and don't need to will that have an adverse affect on my water quality?

Usually not. With Prime you can dose up to 5x.

 

[jarrod0987]

I still don't understand why OP still want to put fishes in an uncycled tank.

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Oh that's coming next One problem at a time though

 

[IllusionX]

Oh that's coming next One problem at a time though

Of course. Getting everything cleaned, and cycling the tank first would be a good beginning.

I don't think getting any more fishes is a good idea at this point.

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[coralbandit]

This would be one of the few times I would run carbon!
It sounds like something is in the system.
Identifying it will be almost impossible.
Getting rid of it should not be.
This is IMO what carbon is good for.

 

[jarrod0987]

This would be one of the few times I would run carbon!
It sounds like something is in the system.
Identifying it will be almost impossible.
Getting rid of it should not be.
This is IMO what carbon is good for.

It's not a bad idea. Could be some kind of strange organic substance.

 

[Salukie]

I noticed you said your GH was 75 and your Kh was 35? Did you mean DKH? If that was the API test kit those levels are super high and probably killing your fish. I had this issue once at a friends house. His well was drilled into pure limestone. It killed fish unless we cut it with distilled water first. You would like to have more like 20 at the most for a gold fish I believe? I would much rather see something like 8. GH is less important to fish but still should be under 20. 75 is really high. It explains why the fish are dying so fast. Try a 50 50 mix of your water and distilled water. Problem is how to get them from your tank water into that water without shocking them. Drip acclimation is probably a good idea. Temp is important to try to match.

The only other thing would be if there was some kind of contaminant in the water you don't know about. Copper for example. However, I'm pretty sure most dechlorinators fix that. Which one did you use?

I'm confused as to why you say these results are high. I mean, it's not the softest of water but it's not nearly high enough to kill goldfish. My GH is around 200, and my KH is over 80. My goldfish do fine.

Goldfish actually love hard water.

Maybe we are using different tests. My results are in parts per million. (mg/L)
0 - 60 = soft water
61 - 100 = slightly hard
101 - 200 = moderately hard
> 200 = very hard

A GH of 74 would put the OP's water in the slightly hard category.

Cutting the tap water with distilled is an option for a 40 gallon aquarium but if these fish are to go in a pond... I can't see the OP using hundreds of gallons of distilled water in his pond. That would be a job in a half! Lol!

 

[absolutangel04]

I still don't understand why OP still want to put fishes in an uncycled tank.

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Because there is nothing wrong with a properly executed fish-in cycle that continually monitors all levels while the fish adjust and the beneficial bacteria colony builds.


Whatever is going on is clearly not from the OP's cycle, since the fish died so quickly. As long as the tank is thoroughly cleaned out to rule out contaminants lingering in the tank, he will have to get more fish eventually.


Carbon and a vinegar rinse sound like great ideas to try and get the tank usable again. Sudden, mass death like that this one of the more frustrating things to figure out. One other thing to consider is to make sure nobody has sprayed any sort of cleaning chemicals right around the tank. That can contaminate as well. Hopefully the next time goes more smoothly.

 

[Autumnsky]

Yes too much can be a problem, of dechlorinator, you need to add a bit more if the water supply containes chloramines because they are tougher to break/bind.

What kind are you using?

Fish in cycles are fine, the OP's problem atm is in what is causing the instant death.

Fish in cycles are more work and more testing.

Carbon sounds like a great idea!

 

[Reygan2]

I'd be interested in the differences in ph. The acclimation process used here was pretty drastic. A 15 minute float with only one mix is not much of an acclimation.

Oh, I see he added tank water to the bag twice.

 

[WashMan03]

Okay, I worked like a mad man last night to get the 40 cleaned up using a 1/11 vinegar to water mix as suggested. I thoroughly rinsed the aquarium until I could no longer smell vinegar. I also cleaned all items that were in the tank using this method (filter, heater, aerator) and then rinsed them thoroughly. I filled the tank with tapwater, added my water conditioner and let it run over night. I am using Aqueon water conditioner which claims to neutralize chlorine, and chloramines and also "detoxifies heavy metals, ammonia, and other elements released from fish waste"

It has been 4 hours now and one of them just died. One is not looking so great and the other two have been sitting at the listless and then every so often swimming around. So I think it's safe to say at this point whatever was causing them to die suddenly is no longer present. I do currently have carbon media in my filter.

I just used my Tetra test strip (no I haven't bought a chemistry set yet) to check the water quality and here's what I'm seeing

Nitrate ~ 0mg/L
nitrite ~ 0mg/L
Total hardness (GH) ~ 75ppm
Total chlorine ~ 0ppm
Total alkalinity (KH) ~ 20ppm
pH ~ 7.8
Temperature 73.8F

I have also THOROUGHLY rinsed my gravel using a colander and tap water. I suppose at this point I could slowly reintroduce the gravel and see what happens. If the fish don't die soon after introducing the gravel I could then start a cycling process with some fish I actually want.

I don't mind doing a "fish in" cycling process as it gives me more interaction with my aquarium. I work from home so checking the quality on a regular basis isn't a problem. I would rather work more and get to enjoy my fish in the meantime than work less and listen to/stare at an empty tank all day.

 

[coralbandit]

I thought I had you figured out!
Some conditioners need to be increased when your water supply has chloramines not chlorine.
A quick(so I say) check of your water supplier on the net should tell you how they treat your water.
I say I thought because the conditioner I am aware of is API not aqueon?
The API says I believe 5X more for chloramines.
Many use seachem prime as it is the most affordable if you do the math and dose correctly.


Read your directions and see if they have different doses for either?
If they do go right to the higher dose!
I am guessing at this point but assume you are using basic goldfish like feeders(comets)?
Even they should not be dropping like flies!
Besides the strips being less accurate they don't test for ammonia which would be the very first nutrient to arrive in a cycling fish tank!
You g fish have not added ammonia to your 40g tank yet in any measure but what makes chloramine different from chlorine is it is chlorine bonded to ammonia ,so it would be nice to know?
Fish in cycles are fine if you do daily testing and waterchanges when needed!
You absolutely need an ammonia test to do this.
There was no other way before.
The youngins are all high tech!(more power to them)
But I hope they know what to do when the power goes out!!!!

 

[jarrod0987]

I'm confused as to why you say these results are high. I mean, it's not the softest of water but it's not nearly high enough to kill goldfish. My GH is around 200, and my KH is over 80. My goldfish do fine.

Goldfish actually love hard water.

Maybe we are using different tests. My results are in parts per million. (mg/L)
0 - 60 = soft water
61 - 100 = slightly hard
101 - 200 = moderately hard
> 200 = very hard

A GH of 74 would put the OP's water in the slightly hard category.

Cutting the tap water with distilled is an option for a 40 gallon aquarium but if these fish are to go in a pond... I can't see the OP using hundreds of gallons of distilled water in his pond. That would be a job in a half! Lol!

We must be using different measurements. I am used to API gh/kh kit for freshwater which reports in DKH. It's a fair pint about the pond but was just trying to save his fish at the time. I did send him a PM asking him if he was talking about PPM or DKH. I had a case where DKH was this high out of a well in the past.

 

[jarrod0987]

Because there is nothing wrong with a properly executed fish-in cycle that continually monitors all levels while the fish adjust and the beneficial bacteria colony builds.


Whatever is going on is clearly not from the OP's cycle, since the fish died so quickly. As long as the tank is thoroughly cleaned out to rule out contaminants lingering in the tank, he will have to get more fish eventually.


Carbon and a vinegar rinse sound like great ideas to try and get the tank usable again. Sudden, mass death like that this one of the more frustrating things to figure out. One other thing to consider is to make sure nobody has sprayed any sort of cleaning chemicals right around the tank. That can contaminate as well. Hopefully the next time goes more smoothly.

Fish in cycling is fine although I find it much easier with 1 or 2 fish. He has a lot of fish for a fish in cycle IMO. Going to be a PITA.

 

[jarrod0987]

I wonder if it is a CO2 Issue? Ph seems pretty high for that. At this point I would go get a small aquarium and some bottled water from the store. Heat it up to 75 and aerate and put the fish in it just to save them and see if they do fine. If they don't do fine there then it is not the water but maybe something being done to the water. If they are fine there, then it has to be the tap water.

 

[WashMan03]

I can reduce the number of fish for cycling if I need to. However, around hour 5 I lost two more goldfish but one of them is more active now than before. Yes I'm just using simple comet goldfish. They are 32 cents each and are about 2 inches in length.

I'm just trying to figure out how the same water being treated the same way a month later would continue to kill all of my fish. Unless it's what someone mentioned and the city has put more chemicals in.

I DO have a liquid ammonia test kit. If I test on tap water (never had a fish in it) after using my water conditioner my chlorine is ~0ppm (according to my test strips) but my ammonia test will show about .75ppm according to my liquid test. I have the understanding that this is caused by chloramine which is now bound and shouldn't harm my fish. Is this correct?

 

[coralbandit]

If properly neutralized the ammonia will still register that is correct.
It really sounds like you have chloramine?
The two remaining fish seem fine?

 

[WashMan03]

I have one remaining fish. He seems okay. He's not super active but he doesn't look like he's on death's doorstep either. However, I have lost 3 out of 4 so far but in 5 hours instead of 2.

 

[WashMan03]

Is it possible my water conditioner could have gone bad? Should I use a different water conditioner and see what happens?

I should also mention that I ran a test earlier just for kicks and grins. I filled up a 5 gallon bucket with tap water and added 4x the amount of water conditioner required just to see what my ammonia test whould show. It came back showing ~.75ppm - 1.0ppm but still 0 chlorine on my strips. So I tested untreated tap water with my strips to make sure they worked and yes the strip looked good except for the chlorine was ~4ppm

What can we deduce from that? Anything useful?

 

[WashMan03]

If properly neutralized the ammonia will still register that is correct.
It really sounds like you have chloramine?
The two remaining fish seem fine?

scratch that. The last fish is doing okay I guess. He IS trying to get air from above the water once in a while it seems. I should note that I am providing PLENTY of oxygen to the water.

 

[coralbandit]

Get seachem prime if it is not too much trouble.
4 ppm chlorine is pretty high(about 2x more then needed I believe).
The ammonia registering eitherway says chloramine to me .
It is very possible if your conditioner is older it may be less or completely ineffective.
Although your test indicate it is working to some degree(removing 4ppm).
I actually use seachem "safe" which is a dry version of prime and it can not be mixed in large quantities and stored for time or it will degrade per seachem themselves!