Update on Goldfish Tank Disaster...

[ArtesiaWells]

Hello All,

Jlk has been graciously assisting me through what has evolved into a rampaging bacterial infection in my 60 gallon fancy goldfish tank, which began as attacks and injuries caused by a new small Red Cap Oranda we introduced (see the long thread in this section of the site). This aggressive young Red Cap attacked the behinds of an older, larger Red Cap Oranda we raised as well as a large Chocolate/Gold Fantail, and this caused massive red sores/ulcers in their anal cavity areas, eventually leading to an outbreak of white bacteria of some kind that killed the Chocolate Fantail yesterday. Now, my 60 gallon is down to just two fish -- the larger Red Cap Oranda, who is exhibiting the same symptoms as the Chocolate Fantail that passed, but without the white areas yet, and a small Black Moor who is seemingly unaffected.

Just before the Chocolate Fantail died yesterday, I started a course of Maracyn antibiotic treatment, and because the Red Cap in there now has the same red ulcer on her behind, I continued the treatment -- today was the second day, and I have combined, on the advice of jlk, the contents of packets of Maracyn and Maracyn II to treat the tank now. According to the directions, on this second through fifth day of treatment, SIX PACKS of powder from EACH medicine needs to be added -- so I dissolved these 12 packets into a vase of water (treated with Prime) and poured it into the tank.

My wife can swear that she sees the affected Red Cap's injury and ulcer getting better -- she says it's not so swollen or dark red anymore, but I can't confirm this. However, this is only after two days of treatment now. Here is what I would like to know as we desperately try and save this Oranda's life:

- Can I just continue dosing per the instructions without doing any water changes right now or changing any filter media? I did not change the cartridges in my Aqueon filter because the carbon has to be exhausted by now, so I figured it was safe to keep medicating.

- Should I ABSOLUTELY keep dosing until the recommended time? The box says run this treatment for about five days if I am not mistaken -- should I continue this to the end, or will the Maracyn kill my fish? Jlk had said something about DOUBLE dosing once the first dose is done -- but this seems very excessive to me, and would probably be unaffordable for us (our 60 gallon takes a LOT of medicine). Can I just get away with doing the "standard" dosing schedule for now (the five days)?

- Will the Maracyn injure or kill the healthy, unaffected Black Moor that's in there now? I assume this bacterial infection can spread, so I am thinking the Maracyn throughout the tank can help protect her -- is this a logical assumption? Further, do I absolutely have to remove the Red Cap Oranda being treated and put her in a hospital tank to continue the Maracyn treatments, or can she stay in the 60 gallon with the Black Moor while I dose the whole tank?

- WIth regard to TREATING with the Maracyn, can I do it the way I have been doing it, which is emptying the contents of the powder packets into a vase of water (treated with Prime) and then dumping that water into the tank...or should the contents of the packets go in directly?

If jlk and anyone else with any insight here could respond at the earliest convenience, it would be appreciated, as always.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Also:

Depending on what you read online (always a shaky, confusing proposition), Maracyn and Maracyn II should possibly be treated for the five day course WITH water changes between EACH dosing each day -- is this true? If so, that's NOT what we have been doing; we're on the second day of the Maracyn/Maracyn II mixture treatment, and I simply added the contents of the packets (six each) to water which was then added to the affected tank...no water change between those dosings...

Are water changes to be made between the Maracyn treatments each and every day? Or should a big change be made once the five day course is over?

This whole thing with my tank is driving me nuts already; everyone on hundreds of forums across the 'Net has wildly varying opinions and takes on medicating fish tanks; I don't know who to trust, who not to trust...whether to just stop the medication cold-turkey and leave fresh water to do the job...whether I should just strip this tank and start over...I just don't know...

We went from treating with Melafix (which we did not finish; we stopped after two or so treatments) to our fish dying, to now treating with Maracyn but with no water changes between dosings...am I doing the right thing here? Should I at least finish the Maracyn until the fifth day?

Additionally:

When you tear/cut open these Maracyn powder packs, they spit the fumes of the powder out at you, causing an immediate release into your lungs accompanied with a very strong metallic odor from the medication...is it okay to inhale this stuff?

 

[jlk]

Water changes are only needed if you see toxin spikes-the meds are ineffective if the water is toxic. As I mentioned earlier, antibiotics may destroy your good bacteria because they do not discriminate between 'good' & 'bad' bacteria. At the end of treatment, you will need to do a big water change & run some new carbon for a few hours to remove any meds. The doubledose was in respect to the first dose- I asked you to read the instructions because this may have changed since the last time I used the product. Standard dose there after for the full course of treatment.

The moor has likely already been exposed to pathogens prior to treatment. He should be fine in there. Moving him at this point may cause some antibiotic resistance in him because he will not have been treated for the full course of meds.

Try not to breath the stuff in!!!

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Water changes are only needed if you see toxin spikes-the meds are ineffective if the water is toxic.

If I am not doing water testing, should I just leave the medication alone with no water changes then? I don't want to suck out the medication through water changes...

As I mentioned earlier, antibiotics may destroy your good bacteria because they do not discriminate between 'good' & 'bad' bacteria.

Yes, I recall you telling me that.

At the end of treatment, you will need to do a big water change & run some new carbon for a few hours to remove any meds.

Wait -- do you mean at the end of the 5 day treatment? And when you say "big," at least 50% (with new carbon cartridges)?

I also meant to ask you about the Seachem Purigen in my filters -- I run three 100ml bags of Purigen, two in the AquaClear and one in the Aqueon -- and if they too need to be removed during medicating? Or can they stay in place?

The doubledose was in respect to the first dose- I asked you to read the instructions because this may have changed since the last time I used the product. Standard dose there after for the full course of treatment.

I don't know what you mean with regard to "standard dose thereafter for the full course of treatment"...you mean after the first five days are up?

Jesus H. Christ, this is all so frustrating and confusing...and this is supposed to be a hobby?

The instructions, according to the box, state that redosing is only necessary if symptoms remain -- it doesn't say anything about having to redose, definitely, after the five days if memory serves...

Please just tell me what to do at this point -- keep dosing for the five days, no carbon or water changes, and see how they're doing? And is it okay to dissolve the packets into water and then pour that into the tank?

Also -- if I am dropping the packets into a separate vase of water to mix into the tank water, do I need to dose according to the volume of the vase or the affected tank? In other words, I have been dropping in six packets of each Maracyn medication, based on the instructions for one pack-per-10-gallons, to the water in the vase, mixing that up and then pouring that into the 60 gallon...is that right, or should I be dosing for the amount of water in the vase?

The moor has likely already been exposed to pathogens prior to treatment. He should be fine in there. Moving him at this point may cause some antibiotic resistance in him because he will not have been treated for the full course of meds.

Okay; so it is okay to treat both fish in this 60 gallon?

Try not to breath the stuff in!!!

Is it fatal to humans? It is so hard not to inhale it -- the powder cloud jumps right out of the packet when you open it. These things are gross and inconvenient; I wish there were like fizzing tablets you can just drop in (I noticed there are cheaper pond-oriented anti-bacterial tablets for goldfish out there, but I already started the Maracyn).

 

[jlk]

You really do have to test the tank daily for ammonia & nitrite while treating in order to monitor toxin levels- there really isnt a way to avoid doing this. At the end of the 5 day treatment (on day 6), you need to do a water change & run some new carbon for 2-3hrs to remove any remaining meds. 'Standard dose' refers to the dose you put in the tank daily after the initial day 1 dose- as I said before, I believe the dose is 1 packet per 10 or 20g but double check the instructions because they may have changed since I last used the products. The instructions the last time I used meds were something along the lines of double dose day 1, then standard dose day 2-5.Retreating is only necessary if after day 5, the symptoms still exist/have not improved. Though, it sounds like you are already seeing some improvement!! Also, dose to the size of your tank, not the size of the vase!

I honestly do not know how purigen affects the meds- a GUESS is that it may remove them if its active but you will need to check with purigen on this. I also do not if the meds pose any danger to us. Erythromycin is a common human med though I dont believe there are many instances where its inhaled for medical purposes. If you cant avoid breathing the powder, either open the packets inside a ziploc baggie & then add some water to it & close & shake it & pour it in the tank or cover your mouth & nose with cloth (or something) to avoid breathing the dust.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

You really do have to test the tank daily for ammonia & nitrite while treating in order to monitor toxin levels- there really isnt a way to avoid doing this. At the end of the 5 day treatment (on day 6), you need to do a water change & run some new carbon for 2-3hrs to remove any remaining meds. 'Standard dose' refers to the dose you put in the tank daily after the initial day 1 dose- as I said before, I believe the dose is 1 packet per 10 or 20g but double check the instructions because they may have changed since I last used the products. The instructions the last time I used meds were something along the lines of double dose day 1, then standard dose day 2-5.Retreating is only necessary if after day 5, the symptoms still exist/have not improved. Though, it sounds like you are already seeing some improvement!! Also, dose to the size of your tank, not the size of the vase!

Thank you...

Yes -- according to the packaging, on the FIRST DAY, there is a big dose of the Maracyn II (TWO packets for every 10 gallons, which came to 12 packs) and SIX packs of the Maracyn (one pack per 10 gallons)...on this second day, through to the fifth, the dose drops to six packets from each medication.

So, you say continue treating until day 5 the way I'm doing, yes? And the mixture of the two meds can be combined into a vase and then put in the tank, as I am doing each day? Can this water be treated with Prime safely during this process?

And I understand regarding day 6 -- do a big water change and then add new carbon cartridges in the filter. At that point, just leave the filters and tank alone and see what happens, yes?

I honestly do not know how purigen affects the meds- a GUESS is that it may remove them if its active but you will need to check with purigen on this.

Oh no...so the Purigen can be sucking up all the meds all this time...dang...

I am going to dispatch an email to Seachem immediately about this...

I also do not if the meds pose any danger to us. Erythromycin is a common human med though I dont believe there are many instances where its inhaled for medical purposes. If you cant avoid breathing the powder, either open the packets inside a ziploc baggie & then add some water to it & close & shake it & pour it in the tank or cover your mouth & nose with cloth (or something) to avoid breathing the dust.

 

[jlk]

Sounds about right! And, yes, Prime is fine to use while using the meds. If you get confused, just ask!

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Sounds about right! And, yes, Prime is fine to use while using the meds. If you get confused, just ask!

Thanks a million, jlk! I have accepted your friend request, as well; thank you!!

I will let you know how things are progressing tomorrow...

Hopefully, with some luck and persistence, we can save this Red Cap and the Black Moor, and re-build a community of fancy goldies around them, re-establishing clean, filtered water and parameters...