"Fishless" cycle myth.

[Steppa]

Good point Midiman. The fish MUST feel something if it's rubbing...!

And we're not anthropomorphizing here. We're debating whether or not a fish can actually feel pain. Pain and Instinct are two different things and not just human characteristics.

 

[midiman]

Agreed. I still think you're resting on a human defintion of "pain". By your defintion, a human infant might not feel "pain" either, since it lacks a conceptual framework and can therefore merely respond to stimuli without evaluating them.

The other argument was one of sufficient neural complexity ... well, fish have a pretty sophisticated nervous system, and are capable of responding to a multitude of stimuli in their environment. If we can agree that they are capable of distinguishing between favorable and unfavorable stimuli, then the word "pain" becomes merely an intellectual exercise.

 

[Steppa]

I see what you're saying.. Again, good point.

 

[tinman]

Yes you're right BillyZ; just an example.


Speaking of which; I went to a "coral" store who has the healthiest assortment of corals I've ever seen. I described my problem and after several questions she says, "I think you're starving your fish. i only feed brine shrimp...!". Since then, I introduced a group of Chromis and feed them brine shrimp and bada-bing! No fish loss!! Can you believe it??

I've posted my problem on this board three times. I've posted on reefcentral.com as well and nobody asked me what I was feeding. The lady said, "You're loosing algae eaters. Don't introduce algae eaters in a 2 month old tank - there isn't sufficient algae and frozen isn't the same. Try carnivores and feed brine shrimp". 100 posts later, the lady in the store set me straight. Whew!

Well if you only feed them brine shrimp your gonna still have problems. I am new to the hobby but have done lots of homework on this subject. BRINE SHRIMP have no nutritional value. Its like giving your fish a bag of lays potatoe chips...They may get fat but they won't be healthy. You have to vary the diet. As far as the fish and cycling, I took foolish advice from a fish store and cycled my tank with 2 damsels, LR and LS. Thank god I had no real big spike. My fish did great never looked distresses. I kept a very close check on the tank paramiters. Now the problem is my 4 year old has taken to the Blue devil and won't let me take it back to the LFS so I can get what I want...KIds gotta lovem.

 

[runway1]

midiman,
Ok, I can sort-of buy that. I see the point you're making and that's valid. It's a perspective, I guess. I don't disagree one bit. I may not be able to get all the way to that angle, but it's a very valid perspective.

I'm just pointing out that what WE perceive as pain leads to emotional complexities and a host of other issues. Just saying that we can't apply our perception of "pain" to that of a fish, that's all.

As many have pointed out (and I agree), that may not be the underlying issue. Another very fine post pointed out:

I choose to treat my animals humanely because I CAN. I think it ennobles us when we treat helpless creatures humanely and with respect.

THAT may be the final, true point - God, I love that quote!

 

[runway1]

That's funny, tinman, my boys and I share the same struggles. When I switched to SW from FW, I thought my family was going to need a counsler! My Green Terror had been tank raised and was the most beautiful GT you'd ever see - ~4 years old.

I miss him dearly. When we took him in for trade, it was a bittersweet moment.

 

[fishfreek]

I have already posted a definition of pain and it appears no one has bothered to read it. By that definition fish indeed DO experence pain.

No this is how I look at it. I dont konw if they do or dont difinitivly but I will tell you that I have not seen true proven science showing they dont experence pain nor have I seen true science showing they do. Given this I infer that fish DO feel pain until proven that they do NOT.

 

[Edmonton Eskimo]

On another note I have heard that fish only have a very short memory I guess because of the minute size of their brain but then why do our fish seem to recognize us? My wife and I were fooling around with the fish one night to see if they can recognize who feeds them. First she went to the tank and the fish didn't really respond and then I went to the tank and they all came right out front and were swimming frantically back and forth. This proves to me that they have a longer memory than stated. I respect scientists and their studies but it is absolutely impossible to say with certainty what an animals perspective is on these issues ie, pain and memory. These animals can't talk so you can't prove beyond a doubt if they feel actual pain or how long there memory is we can only speculate and hypothesize. The scientific world is full of theories and not a lot of proven fact especially when it comes to the psycological realm of animals. I remember when they did a study a while back to determine if fishing is cruel to the fish and I think they came to the conclusion that fish do in fact feel something whether it is pain or discomfort. When I look at the reactions of a fish that is indeed dying, they are definately feeling discomfort of some kind. Comparing what a fish might feel to our understanding of pain probably isn't fair because of the vast differences in physiology but no one can convince me they don't feel anything.

 

[fishfreek]

False on the memory. Fish whom are fed at a regular time will become more active just prior to feeding. Fish whom are feed in the same spot of the tank all the time will congragate there when someone is close to the tank (ie about to feed). While not overly scientific a Mythbusters segment was done with goldfish and feeding to see if they indeed had a memory. Fish where 'taught' to navigate a maze of clear plastic panels to a food reward. As time went by the fish navigated this maze with increasing effecency showing the potental to 'remember' how to get to the food.

 

[BillyZ]

I think the Eskimo was stating the same thing FF. His observation was that the fish remembered him.

I can add my own observations to this. My Fish tanks are in an area where I am standing by them often. The fish don't always react to my being present. But when I'm present with the food canister in my hand, they become very active and move to where I feed. I have even "tested" this once... I walked up to the tank and stood there, not doing anything. The fish did not react. As soon as I picked up the can of fish food (FW tank) the fish became very active and moved to the surface, already looking for food. I know.. not scientific... but a legitimate observation that, to me, proves there is some form of memory/recognition.

 

[RocketSeason]

Fish whom are fed at a regular time will become more active just prior to feeding. Fish whom are feed in the same spot of the tank all the time will congragate there when someone is close to the tank.

My fish go crazy nuts when I set a coffe cup containing frozen food on the glass top of the tank for a few minutes to let the food melt to tank temp.

Those fish know what is in that cup. Thats some pretty smart fish.

 

[tinman]

In response to the memory debate:

They may develope memory but at the same time the are not very intellegent. For instance You can set up a tank placing plants and decorative rock in several areas, leave it for a year. The fish will develope territories and even homes. If you take and move all the plants and decrotive rocks around, the fish get confussed and don't register that it is the same rock just in a different spot and will develope a totally different territory and home.....

 

[Edmonton Eskimo]

This is a very cool debate! To respond to FF I don't really feed my fish at the same time of day and it's not only when it's feeding time. I'm talking when I go up to the tank they seem to perform for me a little bit. My fish didn't do this at first and it has been a gradual progression. I agree that there probably isn't much complexity to their memory but I believe it is there.

 

[greenfish]

Fish definitely have a memory of some kind. Think of all those salmon who return to the stream where the spawned from. You could say it was instinct I guess but what drives that instinct? It has to on some level be some sense of memory in my opinion. It may be a primitive memory but a memory none the less.

As far as pain goes, I would think on some level they experience some form of it. They definitely react to negative stimuli. Whether this is true pain as you and I feel, I think we will never know.

 

[mjvincent]

Fish definitely have a memory of some kind. Think of all those salmon...

Fish have instincts and that would be about it...

Check this link out by a MD... http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm

 

[AR15 guy]

Have you ever heard a lobster scream when they are being steamed at a lobster restaurant? They scream. Sounds a lot like a horrified womans scream. Its wierd.

 

[midiman]

Have you ever heard a lobster scream when they are being steamed at a lobster restaurant? They scream. Sounds a lot like a horrified womans scream. Its wierd.

Just air being expelled from cavities within the exoskeleton, more than likely. Since they don't have lungs, they can't exhale. Or course, then there's the whole vocal cord thing...

 

[Jchillin]

For instance You can set up a tank placing plants and decorative rock in several areas, leave it for a year. The fish will develope territories and even homes. If you take and move all the plants and decrotive rocks around, the fish get confussed and don't register that it is the same rock just in a different spot and will develope a totally different territory and home.....

Wouldn't this be true of humans also? If somone discreetly moved every house on one block during the day, when people came home there would be mass confusion. It would take awhile before everyone realized that there house was moved.

 

[tinman]

For instance You can set up a tank placing plants and decorative rock in several areas, leave it for a year. The fish will develope territories and even homes. If you take and move all the plants and decrotive rocks around, the fish get confussed and don't register that it is the same rock just in a different spot and will develope a totally different territory and home.....

Wouldn't this be true of humans also? If somone discreetly moved every house on one block during the day, when people came home there would be mass confusion. It would take awhile before everyone realized that there house was moved.

never thought of it that way...lol....alot of POed people on that block..This is true but you would recognize your house after the confusion was over. Fish I have found don't even recognize the same rock.

 

[RocketSeason]

heck,

I get mad whenever my fiancee moves the coffee table.