Cycling and STILL nothing happening!

[elliott_001]

I started cycling my tank 7days ago with some brine shrimp, ive done about 3 tests for ammonia since then, the latest being just now, and all three times the ammonia level has been the same! (very low - between 0 and 0.25 ppm!) Im not seeing any increase at all and am getting a bit annoyed by it. Surely by now i should have seen some increase, i have put some seeded plants and a rock in there and had some squeezings from my brothers filter.

whats going wrong?
Could it be because there are already bacteria in the tank from the seeded material, which are preventing the ammonia levels to rise??
Do i need the ammonia levels surge? so should i be adding more ammonia? Or is it ok as it is, i just need the nitrate and nitrite to fall?

 

[jcarlilesiu]

what are your other readings? Nitrites, Nitrates?

 

[elliott_001]

Tests carried out today show:
Ammonia - between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrate - 75ppm
Nitrite - 0.1ppm



3days ago...
Ammonia - between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrate - between 50 and 75ppm
Nitrite - 0.5ppm

 

[Zagz]

It may be because of the seeded media but if you do a water change and your levels are ammonia and nitrite 0 ppm and you nitrates you are cycled. Your nitrates are rather high, so do a water change of at least 50% and see what you are at. It is not impossible with seeded media to come close to an instant cycle. A cycle is complete when ammonia, nitrite is 0 and nitrates are at least 10 ppm. I cycled a tank with a filter from another tank and the substrate. I had no ammonia ever and nitrates of 15 ppm right away.

 

[TomK2]

There is no way, I repeat, no way you got 75 ppm of nitrate in just one week from a piece of shrimp. (If you did, I will eat that piece of shrimp!) Test your tap water, I bet you have nitrates in your tap water. You might even have nitrite or chloramines in your tap water, which could be responsible for the tank readings without any biologic action. So test your tap water for nitrite and ammonia too. If your tap water has zero ammonia, and zero nitrite, then that is good news! Your test results indicate your bacteria are already working on the ammonia at least. Starting out with nitrate of 75ppm is going to make it really hard to "SEE" the end of the cycle with a rise in nitrates, since they are already so high. In that case you would be better off with adding pure ammonia, since then you could say with certainty that "X ppm of ammonia are added daily, and are consumed in 24 hours with the ammonia and nitrite levels zero, thus my tank is cycled despite not seeing my nitrates change from the really high level of 75 that I started with."

It does look like the bacteria have started their work, so hang in there.

 

[elliott_001]

Thanks, you are correct, so dont worry, you will not be eating any rotting shrimp! I have tested my tap water, here are the results;

Nitrate - between 25 - 50ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Ammonia - 0ppm

 

[Fishyfanatic]

You may want to increase the amount of "waste" that you have in the tank. It appears that the brine shrimp is not enough to cause an ammonia spike. Try dosing with pure ammonia.

 

[elliott_001]

I was kinda thinking that too, i dont know of anywhere i can get hold of any pure ammonia though. Do you not agree with TomK2? i was kinda hoping that was more the situation i was dealing with 8)

 

[TomK2]

Well, its good that you have some ammonia and nitrite int the tank, it shows that your seed has sped things along. I also think its hard to attribute the 25ppm extra nitrate in the tank to the decaying shrimp - thats a lot of nitrate in just one week. I haven't had a fullly stocked tank go up 25ppm of nitrate in one week. So you have a dilemma, increases in nitrate will be hard to see when yuor nitrate starts out at 50ppm. For fishless cycling, adding pure ammonia would be helpfull, since you could quantify how much ammonia gets converted in a day. If your tank can convert 1ppm of ammonia a day, without having any ammonia or nitrite left over, then it would be safe to assume your fish won't be exposed to ammonia or nitrite. Thats a bummer of a high tap nitrate level. Do you have access to another source of water for water changes that are lower in nitrate? Distilled maybe?

 

[elliott_001]

I could get my hands on some distilled water for water changes, shouldnt be a problem. I dont know where i get pure ammonia from, whats it normally sold for? I dont know what to do now then, should i get some distilled water tonight an do a water change? How much nitrate is in your tap water then?

 

[TomK2]

I get it from the local hardware store. It is sold as a generic cleaner. Most houshold cleaners are ammonia with coloring, scents, and other additives. Its the additives that you do not want. No surfactants or perfumes. So the hard part is to find a store that just sells a regular 10% ammonia solution with no additives as a cleaner. In the USA, Ace hardware stores do this.

I have zero nitrate in my tap water, or at least well below the 5ppm lower limit of the aquarium pharmaceuticals test kit.

 

[elliott_001]

I've just been to a hardware store and found some pure ammonia cleaner, its so strong!! blew my head off when i opened the lid!! Im gonna have to dilute it a lot, but how much do i have to use?? how much should i put in?
On the bottle - to use it for stain removal it says add 25ml to 10litres of water??! how much should i dilute it? Or should i just add something like 50ml to my tank? My tank is 30gal (120 litres). Thanks

 

[elliott_001]

I just read that i should add small amounts untill my tests read 4 or 5 ppm, then add this amount daily and do tests to see what happens, however it did also say that this is not a great way because a sudden spike in ammonia hurts the nitrite-eating bacteria, slowing down that phase of cycling.

 

[TomK2]

Wait! its easy to calculate! for example, a 10% ammonia solution requires 0.34 ml to produce 1ppm in 10 gals. What concentration is your solution?

 

[TomK2]

here's the math:

All Glass “10 gal” tank, fill to bottom of black trim:
Internal Dimensions: 11inches by 9.75inches by 19.5 inches =
27.94cm x 24.765cm x 49.53 cm = 34271.5 cc = 34.27 liters
or L in x W in x H in x 2.54 cubed (16.387)
Ace Hardware Ammonium10% sol =100grams per liter = 0.1 grams per ml = 100 mg per ml
1 ppm is 1 mg per liter (1gram per 1,000,000cc = 1gram per1000Liters =1mg per 1 Liter)
34.27liters x 1 mg/L is 34.27mg in the whole tank filled to bottom of black trim.
34.27mg / 100mg/ml = .34 ml in the tank for 1 ppm.

 

[elliott_001]

right, ok, i should have waited to work it out, but i have already added some to my tank. Im pretty sure this is pure ammonia, it certainly is very strong, i saw on a website that i should add 5 drops per 10gal, so i added 15 drops using a pipette, then tested the water, the ammonia level now reads between 1 and 2ppm (cant quite decide which green it is closer too!) Should i add more to reach about 4ppm? or just leave this level and test 2moro?

 

[TomK2]

cool. As far as I know, no one has done a "dose response" trial to see what level produces the fastest fishless cycle. By default, probably because the test kits commonly only go to 5 ppm, many have chosen 5ppm as a starting dose. Since the bacteria can only grow so fast (double about every 7 hours for nitrosomas, 14 hours for nitrobacter), my guess is that any detectable level will work equally well, but who knows? Once is drops, replenish it to the original level. Once you have nitrites detectible, I would cut the dose down to 0.5 or 1 ppm, replace daily as needed. Since you have seeded the tank, I bet you will see the ammonia level of 2ppm go to zero in 24 hours within the week. My rationale for cutting the ammonia dose once you have nitrites is that the nitrobacter grow slower, so that the more ammonia you add the higher the nitrite spike will be, and the longer it will take for ammonia and nitrite to go to zero in a 24hr period. Once your tank can clear 0.5 to 1 ppm of ammonia a day with no ammonia or nitrite, I would think you could go to about 20 to 25% of your planned stocking level and stop adding ammonia. At that point, I would consider PWC with distilled water to reduce the nitrates in your tank.

Others may suggest different, I don't think there really is a wrong or right way to do it, so long as ammonia doesn't go above 5 ppm, and possibly avoiding off the chart nitrites.

 

[elliott_001]

Nice one, thanks for the advice, i will post some more test results soon

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Pure Ammonia can be found at most hardware stores. Our tap water has 0 Nitrates and Nitrites, thankfully. It has slight ammonia but I contribute that to the Chloramines.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Oops, didn't see the second page. Glad you found the Ammonia.