Fishless Cycle Question.

[joshv155]

I have been doing the research and reading lots of threads and still have some questions.

I am on day 15 of my fishless cycle. I keep dosing my ammonia up to 4ppm when it gets down to 1ppm....it took about 18 hours for this to occur from day 13 to 14. My nitrites have been off the charts for several days now and my Nitrates seem to be between 20 - 40ppm (sometimes it is hard to tell the color difference on the API test kit.)

Where do I go from here ? The nitrites are not dropping but the ammonia is. I have nitrates so from what I have read should I do a PWC to get the nitrites down ? And what exactly is the reason for this....? Don't the nitrites get converted to nitrates anyways ? So why do a PWC to get rid of the nitrites ?

I have a 75 gallon tank, aquatop 400uv filter, heat has been at 78.

Just need to know if I am on the right track and what to do from here....thanks !

 

[HooKooDooKu]

Once you get the 1st bacteria established that converts ammonia to nitrite, you have to keep dosing your tank to keep that bacteria fed. You don't neccessarily need to dose upto 4ppm anymore, but enough to give them a steady diet.And just like it took a couple of weeks for the ammonia->nitrite bacteria to get established, it is going to take a few weeks for the nitrite->nitrate bacteria to get established.You no longer need to keep dosing the tank to 4ppm of ammonia. There is now way more nitrite needed to begin getting the 2nd bacteria established. However, you do have to keep that 1st bacteria fed so that they don't die while you wait for the 2nd bacteria to get established.From what I've heard, you usally need a touch of phoshorous to get that 2nd bacteria established. So I know some fishless cycle instructions include adding a tiny little pinch of fish food to get the needed phoshorous.Nitrites are so high, you might want to do some partial water changes to bring them down. But when you do, make sure you add a little ammonia back to keep that 1st bacteria fed.

 

[jlk]

I will disagree a bit here. You should continue to dose your amm back up to 4 (no higher) once a day when it drops. If you dont, your amm>nitrite bacteria will adjust downward to the lower amm dose & upon stocking your tank when the cycle is complete, you risk the possbility of seeing your amm levels spike as the bacteria adjusts upwards again. This basically places the tank in fish-in cycle & defeats the whole purpose of doing a fishless cycle in the first place.

In respect to your cycle, things are proceeding as expected. This is good! Your finishing up the amm>nitrite phase of bacterial growth as your amm is dropping steadily although its not zeroing out completely yet. The nitrite>nitrate phase typically takes twice as long as the amm phase. Make sure you check your tap for nitrates & you are checking your ph daily for changes (which can slow or stall a cycle).

In respect to the high levels of nitrites, its been my experience that excessivley high nitrites will slow or stall a cycle. As the API nitrite test only reads to 5ppm & there isnt a high-range nitrite available for general use, I dont have a scientific answer on what level the nitrites start to cause issues with a cycle. When nitrite levels have been very high for extended frame of time (greater than 2wks), big water changes help to bring the nitrite levels under control & can help a cycle along by re-establishing buffers & nutrients that are utilized by the bacteria during nitritfication. Your doing fine so far!! Keep us posted!

 

[joshv155]

Ok. I will put some fish food in when i get home in an hour or so.

Why do you want to do the water changes in order to drop nitrites ? Don't you want that bacteria in there so that you can establish the nitrates ? Or is that more nitrites in the tank than can be switched to nitrates ?

What would you recomend dosing ammonia wise ? 2ppm or less ?

 

[joshv155]

I will disagree a bit here. You should continue to dose your amm back up to 4 (no higher) once a day when it drops. If you dont, your amm>nitrite bacteria will adjust downward to the lower amm dose & upon stocking your tank when the cycle is complete, you risk the possbility of seeing your amm levels spike as the bacteria adjusts upwards again. This basically places the tank in fish-in cycle & defeats the whole purpose of doing a fishless cycle in the first place.

In respect to your cycle, things are proceeding as expected. This is good! Your finishing up the amm>nitrite phase of bacterial growth as your amm is dropping steadily although its not zeroing out completely yet. The nitrite>nitrate phase typically takes twice as long as the amm phase. Make sure you check your tap for nitrates & you are checking your ph daily for changes (which can slow or stall a cycle).

In respect to the high levels of nitrites, its been my experience that excessivley high nitrites will slow or stall a cycle. As the API nitrite test only reads to 5ppm & there isnt a high-range nitrite available for general use, I dont have a scientific answer on what level the nitrites start to cause issues with a cycle. When nitrite levels have been very high for extended frame of time (greater than 2wks), big water changes help to bring the nitrite levels under control & can help a cycle along by re-establishing buffers & nutrients that are utilized by the bacteria during nitritfication. Your doing fine so far!! Keep us posted!

REsponded as you were writing this I guess. So I will do a water change tomorrow and post my results...I never tested just the tap water so will do that as well.

Glad to hear I am on the right path...seems like this is taking forever !

I have what people are calling a python...the tube that attaches to the sink for water changes ? I can't for the life of me figure out how to set it up. I got it used....going to try and find a user manual online somewhere...

 

[jlk]

Its kinda difficult to explain how to use one in print! There are a couple of U-tube videos that give demonstrations on how to use pythons/gravel vacs. You will find this alot more helpful!

 

[Hholly]

YouTube has demos of the Python or Aqueon water changers.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

I will disagree a bit here. You should continue to dose your amm back up to 4 (no higher) once a day when it drops. If you dont, your amm>nitrite bacteria will adjust downward to the lower amm dose & upon stocking your tank when the cycle is complete, you risk the possbility of seeing your amm levels spike as the bacteria adjusts upwards again. This basically places the tank in fish-in cycle & defeats the whole purpose of doing a fishless cycle in the first place.</p>...

In respect to the high levels of nitrites, its been my experience that excessivley high nitrites will slow or stall a cycle. As the API nitrite test only reads to 5ppm & there isnt a high-range nitrite available for general use, I dont have a scientific answer on what level the nitrites start to cause issues with a cycle. When nitrite levels have been very high for extended frame of time (greater than 2wks), big water changes help to bring the nitrite levels under control & can help a cycle along by re-establishing buffers & nutrients that are utilized by the bacteria during nitritfication. Your doing fine so far!! Keep us posted!

This is where you have to find some sort of balance. If you keep dosing the ammonia at 'high' levels (and I'll leave the definition of high open to debate), you keep growing more and more ammonia bacteria while there is no nitrite bacteria yet. The result is that you soon have enought ammonia bacteria that the entire 'high' dosage of ammonia all gets converted to nitrite overnight. But with no nitrite bacteria established, your nitrites quickly shoot through the stratusphere. Then you have to keep doing lots of pwcs to keep nitrite levels down, but I was trying to do fishless cycling so that I wouldn't have to keep doing tons of pwcs during the process.

IMHO, the way to do it is once the ammonia bacteria is established, you back way off the ammonia dosing so that you don't get consistantly huge nitrite levels. You do have to keep dosing with some ammonia so that you don't loose your ammonia bacteria colony. But otherwise, you allow that colony to die off some while we wait for the nitrite bacteria to start a colony. When the nitrite bacteria has established itself and managed to grow to the level that it matches the reduced-sized ammonia colony, then you start increasing the ammonia dosing to now grow both bacteria together.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

Its kinda difficult to explain how to use one in print! ...

But I'll give it a try

Basically, you unscrew the nipple that hangs down from the faucet. You replace it with this device that has a hose addapter on it. You then attach this 'device' to the hose addapter. This 'device' has a 'nozzle' at the bottom and has a hose attachement on the side. You attach the hose that comes with the phyon to the side of the 'device'. Place the other end of the hose in your tank. Then open the nozzle on the device and turn on the faucet. The 'device' will use the energy of the water flowing through the 'device' to begin sucking water out of your tank. Once you've removed enough water from the tank, you close the nozzle. This turns off the suction action of the 'device', and instead directs the water from the faucet to the hose and into your tank.

 

[jetajockey]

This is where you have to find some sort of balance. If you keep dosing the ammonia at 'high' levels (and I'll leave the definition of high open to debate), you keep growing more and more ammonia bacteria while there is no nitrite bacteria yet. The result is that you soon have enought ammonia bacteria that the entire 'high' dosage of ammonia all gets converted to nitrite overnight. But with no nitrite bacteria established, your nitrites quickly shoot through the stratusphere. Then you have to keep doing lots of pwcs to keep nitrite levels down, but I was trying to do fishless cycling so that I wouldn't have to keep doing tons of pwcs during the process.

IMHO, the way to do it is once the ammonia bacteria is established, you back way off the ammonia dosing so that you don't get consistantly huge nitrite levels. You do have to keep dosing with some ammonia so that you don't loose your ammonia bacteria colony. But otherwise, you allow that colony to die off some while we wait for the nitrite bacteria to start a colony. When the nitrite bacteria has established itself and managed to grow to the level that it matches the reduced-sized ammonia colony, then you start increasing the ammonia dosing to now grow both bacteria together.

I agree with your premise. It makes sense to reduce ammonia dosing until the nitrite > nitrate bacteria start working. For one, 4ppm ammonia is a huge amount for any tank to process, and is far more than your average fully stocked tank will produce in a single day. I know this because I've fish-in cycled many tanks, dozens in the past few months even, and have monitored them very closely. But even if that doesn't mean much, one could always increase the ammonia dosing later on after the nitrite > nitrate bacteria catch up.

 

[jlk]

Agree to disagree. Everyone has different ways of accomplishing cycling. I have always fishless cycled dosing to 4ppm ammonia (utilizing water changes to keep nitrites under control) as I keep fish with huge bioloads. I believe most individuals fishless cycling desire to stock their tanks fully when their cycles are complete. Granted, dropping back on the amm dosing during the nitrite phase may aid in alleviating crazy nitrite levels while the bacteria play catch-up but water changes will probably be necessary anyway. Increasing the amm dose once amm/nitrite is being processed I believe would double the time it takes to fishless cycle as you would have to wait out a second round of amm>nitrite conversion then the consequent nitrite>nitrate conversion as the bacteria readjusts. Just my opinion.

 

[joshv155]

Just attempted to set up my Aqueon water changer....discovered that it did not come with a fitting to attach to my sink. Since I never had one before when I bought it used (came with my tank set up) I didn't know what to look for. That and it's only 25 feet....and the closest sink is about 35 feet away. *sigh* I will be lugging 5 gallon buckets back and forth for the next 30 - 45 minutes ....

 

[Hholly]

A new one with a 50' hose is about $50 online. Worth every penny.

 

[jlk]

Dont panic! Go hit a Home Depot & buy another section hose- the couplings on most water changers are designed to be extended. Also at Home Depot, look in the plumbing section where faucets parts are located (traps, o-rings etc). They carry the 2 parts you will need to adapt the hose to your faucet (@$12). I dont remember the exact names (the home depot people can help) but one fits on the end of your faucet (you need to remove the aerator piece) & the other screws onto the end of the hose fitting. When you use them, the hose fitting piece end pops into the sink adapter. This is assuming you dont have some funky faucet design! I can get you the specific names later when my husband comes home.

 

[joshv155]

So I just did a 25 gallon (33%) water change and tested the water after:

Day 11 (I thought it was day 16 but went back and looked and nope...day 11...seems longer !)

PH: 7.4
Ammonia: .50 (dosed it to 4ppm yesterday...keep doing this right ?)
Nitrite: 5.0+ ppm...still off the charts
Nitrate: 40ppm

Would love the names to the parts I need...will have to get that done tomorrow...headed out to work in an hour. Thanks for all the help.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

You should also be able to buy "spare parts" for your water changer at many local fish stores. The PetSmart web site shows that you can buy the faucet adapter for about $4 bucks (the $12 one that jlk references is likely metal), and a 25' hose extension for $25.

You don't want to buy a typical "garden" hose from a big box store for your extension. Most of those hoses are made from chemicals that leach into the water (and if you ignore the warning about drinking from the hose, you'll be able to taste it). You would want to get a hose that is drinking water safe. For example, the Home Depot web site shows a Boat and Camper Hose that is 50' for $23.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

Would love the names to the parts I need...will have to get that done tomorrow...headed out to work in an hour. Thanks for all the help.

Just tell them you are looking for a faucet to garden hose adapter.

 

[jlk]

Yes, the parts I am refering to are all metal. I have had the plastic adapters before & had issues with leaking because they didnt seat correctly. Maybe they were just poorly made!

 

[jetajockey]

Agree to disagree. Everyone has different ways of accomplishing cycling. I have always fishless cycled dosing to 4ppm ammonia (utilizing water changes to keep nitrites under control) as I keep fish with huge bioloads. I believe most individuals fishless cycling desire to stock their tanks fully when their cycles are complete. Granted, dropping back on the amm dosing during the nitrite phase may aid in alleviating crazy nitrite levels while the bacteria play catch-up but water changes will probably be necessary anyway.

I can agree with that. Everyone does have different ways of doing it, and the guides are just that, they aren't based on a scientific standard and are written by hobbyists just like us. With that in mind, why would it be a bad idea to address everything on an individual basis? I was just giving some data since I have tested multiple tanks through the fish-in cycling process and I know that even most of the densely stocked store displays (apart from the feeder tanks) don't spike up to 4ppm in a single day unless they are vastly overstocked.

Increasing the amm dose once amm/nitrite is being processed I believe would double the time it takes to fishless cycle as you would have to wait out a second round of amm>nitrite conversion then the consequent nitrite>nitrate conversion as the bacteria readjusts. Just my opinion.

It won't double the time to fishless cycle at all. Once the bacteria colony is established and functioning, colony size can double in as little as 20 to 24 hours under optimal conditions. I can cite sources for this if necessary.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just trying to keep discourse open since this is often a contentious subject. There is a wide scope of things that people say about ammonia and nitrite toxicity and cycling in general, everything from 'any trace of ammonia will kill your fish' to 'throw some fish in and come back in a month', so it's good to open up dialogue every now and again.

 

[jlk]

Thanks, Jeta!!! I always appreciate your insight and discourse on the topics of fishy concern. Lets help this person through a fishless cycle as this is the route he/she is choosing to venture upon.