Goes against all I've read...

[Fishy monkey]

I went to my LFS last week, they said cos I was doing a fish in cycle with only 5 danios in a 165litre it would take forever, and advised 4 panda cories to help it along saying they could survive anything and were really hardy fish.

I lost a cory after every water change (temp matched, with aquasafe in and left for 5 mins for the aquasafe to work, approx 30% water change) so today I went back to the LFS, they said I was changing too much water and just 10% is more than enough. I got some safe start and they said to put some in every other day to help speed the cycle up, 5mls for every 6 litres in the tank, not every 6 litres I change. That's the first thing I want to run by you guys.

The second thing, I'm doing a fishless cycle with my QT, a 60 litre. I have no pure ammonia so am using crushed food. All seemed to be going fine until last week, now my ammonia just isn't converting to nitrites anymore. Don't know why that happened cos my nitrites were ticking along nicely. The LFS guy said crushed food cycles don't work, and the only way to cycle the tank is with fish cos there's nowhere round here that sells ammonia.
He also said to keep a couple of fish in the QT to keep it cycled, just a couple of platies would do it.

The LFS in question has been voted top in a popular fish keeping magazine, and this guy is the manager so I kinda want to trust him, but it goes against all I've read here.

I'd love your input on this cos I just wanna get things right, this is my 3rd attempt at establishing a tank and its heartbreaking when I get it wrong.

 

[Andrew McFadden]

With a fish in cycle it may be 10% 25% or any % it all depends on how high the ammonia and nitrites test. In other words you'll need to change however much it takes to keep the ammonia and nitrites under .25.

For the fishless cycle I don't know a lot about because ive never done one.

 

[stevedocs]

Panda cories in a fish less cycle really doesn't make sense, they need a pretty mature set up,

 

[Fishy monkey]

With a fish in cycle it may be 10% 25% or any % it all depends on how high the ammonia and nitrites test. In other words you'll need to change however much it takes to keep the ammonia and nitrites under .25.

For the fishless cycle I don't know a lot about because ive never done one.

I get that about during the cycle, but I've been reading about recommended changes being 25-50% a week even in an established tank, but he said a panda cory can only handle 10% a week so that's the bit that's confusing me.

Would 10% in a cycled tank be ok?

 

[Fishy monkey]

Panda cories in a fish less cycle really doesn't make sense, they need a pretty mature set up,

It's fish in, but I know what you mean. Hindsights a wonderful thing :-( I have 1 left, seems to be doing ok at the mo but the others seemed fine too til they died :-(

 

[Andrew McFadden]

I get that about during the cycle, but I've been reading about recommended changes being 25-50% a week even in an established tank, but he said a panda cory can only handle 10% a week so that's the bit that's confusing me.

Would 10% in a cycled tank be ok?

Fish like fresh water most of us here do 2 25% changes a week. So I don't see how that could effect any fish.

 

[librarygirl]

My replies below in blue.....

I went to my LFS last week, they said cos I was doing a fish in cycle with only 5 danios in a 165litre it would take forever, and advised 4 panda cories to help it along saying they could survive anything and were really hardy fish. I dont think Corys are that hardy. Seems like the store just wants to sell you stuff nono. Have you been testing the water? What are the parameters been like (ammonia, nitrite etc) and how long have you been cycling? If you're seeing ammonia rise then 5 danios enough; if it isn't rising then you could add more Danios maybe. Knowing the numbers and a little more of the history will help determine where you are in the cycle.

I lost a cory after every water change (temp matched, with aquasafe in and left for 5 mins for the aquasafe to work, approx 30% water change) so today I went back to the LFS, they said I was changing too much water and just 10% is more than enough. I got some safe start and they said to put some in every other day to help speed the cycle up, 5mls for every 6 litres in the tank, not every 6 litres I change. That's the first thing I want to run by you guys. There really isn't such a thing as changing too much water. I do 50% changes weekly and i have Pandas and Sterbai corys as well. Your ammonia and nitrite tests will determine when to change water and how much. Here's a guide if you haven't seen it I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?! - Aquarium Advice and Guide to Starting a Freshwater Aquarium - Aquarium Advice

I'm not sure why the corys are dying after water changes. The only thing I can think of is if the PH out of your tap differs widely from what's in your tank, but even then that might not do it. My tap's PH is 8.4 but it gasses out to 7.2 and I have corys and do water changes and the swing doesn't seem to bother them at all. My other guess is that it's just bad stock and the corys were already sick when you got them. As for the bacteria starters, they are hit and miss. Often they don't work. You can try it, but don't expect any miracles and honestly it's probably a waste of money.

The second thing, I'm doing a fishless cycle with my QT, a 60 litre. I have no pure ammonia so am using crushed food. All seemed to be going fine until last week, now my ammonia just isn't converting to nitrites anymore. Don't know why that happened cos my nitrites were ticking along nicely. The LFS guy said crushed food cycles don't work, and the only way to cycle the tank is with fish cos there's nowhere round here that sells ammonia.
He also said to keep a couple of fish in the QT to keep it cycled, just a couple of platies would do it. Crushed food cycles do work, it's just often hard to keep ammonia at the optimum levels with just fish food and it can make a mess. Do you have a Boots near you? I know people in the UK have used Boots ammonia; homebase is another. Have you tested the tank's PH? Ph drops are common in cycling tanks and can cause the cycle to stall if it goes too low. Also if nitrites are very high for a long period it can stall things too. You could try doing a water change to replenish buffers and nutrients and then commence with the cycle and see how things go. Putting fish in a QT tank seems silly. Also unless you're going to use it there often isn't much need to keep a QT cycled. Mine is in my closet. If I ever need to use it I can pull media from my cycled tank to seed the QT tank. Often too if a fish is in QT, especially if it's sick, frequent water changes are often needed anyway so unless you dump a boatload of fish in a QT tank the ammonia shouldn't rise to dangerous levels too quickly.

The LFS in question has been voted top in a popular fish keeping magazine, and this guy is the manager so I kinda want to trust him, but it goes against all I've read here. He sounds pretty old-school: no water changes, cycling with fish. I'm sure that's how they did things a while ago but there are better methods now. Plus he has an agenda, to make money.

I'd love your input on this cos I just wanna get things right, this is my 3rd attempt at establishing a tank and its heartbreaking when I get it wrong.

 

[Fishy monkey]

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.

I've been doing regular tests (API freshwater master kit), my ammonia gets up to 0.25 but I don't let it get above that, nitrites haven't started yet and nitrates are 0, pH has been a steady 7.6 and the cycles been going for 6 weeks. That's the main tank.

The QT has been going for about the same time, had a spike in pH last week when it rose to 8.4, did a partial change and cleaned up some of the flakes, that's when it stalled, nothing's happened in there since, ammonia just staying at 1 and nitrites have disappeared.

I will be using the QT a lot til my main tanks stocked, I'm thinking 4 weeks QT for all new fish and I reckon 12 months to fully stock the main, so would that be a yay or nay on 2 platies living in there?

The pandas haven't shown any sign of illness, that's why I do think its something to do with the water changes. I'm temperature matching the water by mixing water from the hot and cold taps and testing by hand, mixing the aquasafe at the same time then just leaving it to stand for 5 mins. Could it be something in the hot water pipes? Cos I've read about stuff being in hot water pipes that isn't in cold ones, but I don't know how else to temp match it. I tried using the kettle once but ended up with lime scale in the tank!

I'm not aware of boots selling pure ammonia, I'm wary of it having additives in but I'll check it out on Monday, thanks for that cos I've only been asking in fish shops

I'm pretty annoyed that it seems the LFS guy isn't a goodie, there's so much conflicting info and its so easy to make a mistake so with them being well rated I was hopeful of getting solid advice :-(

 

[Wroberson]

I've always used store bought bacteria. I know it's not the preferred method. I general set the tank up. Let the filters run 2 days to remove the chlorine. Add the bacteria and insert fish. I still have one of my original fish. Maybe two.

For fishless cycle I was thinking that before you put the gravel in the tank you sprinkle a few flakes on the bottom of the tank then put the gravel in. Sinking pellets and wafers will settle to the bottom. Flake just seem to hang out at the top of the tank.

Good luck. Not my area on knowledge. You'll get some good advice from others.

 

[Fishy monkey]

I've always used store bought bacteria. I know it's not the preferred method. I general set the tank up. Let the filters run 2 days to remove the chlorine. Add the bacteria and insert fish. I still have one of my original fish. Maybe two.

For fishless cycle I was thinking that before you put the gravel in the tank you sprinkle a few flakes on the bottom of the tank then put the gravel in. Sinking pellets and wafers will settle to the bottom. Flake just seem to hang out at the top of the tank.

Good luck. Not my area on knowledge. You'll get some good advice from others.

That's how I've done it the last 2 times, but that was in my 60 litre and now it's a much bigger tank so taking lots longer.

The QT doesn't have any gravel in it, so all the flakes are just mushy on the bottom and easy to clean up, I don't think I could stand to do a food cycle with gravel, I'd be paranoid about the mess!

Thanks for your input

 

[cwmont13]

the advice the LFS is giving you about the safe start is not the way tetra recommends using it. here's a link that has some pretty good information about using safe start.

Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart | 58116

they say not to use it with pure ammonia however I used TSS with ammomia to fishless cycle my 25 gallon and in the end it worked fine for me. There's quite a bit of information out there on safe start but it's hit or miss as far as success goes.

 

[Fishy monkey]

the advice the LFS is giving you about the safe start is not the way tetra recommends using it. here's a link that has some pretty good information about using safe start.

Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart | 58116

they say not to use it with pure ammonia however I used TSS with ammomia to fishless cycle my 25 gallon and in the end it worked fine for me. There's quite a bit of information out there on safe start but it's hit or miss as far as success goes.

Thanks for that, I was curious about it cos I did use it when I set up the tank, but after that it says just to use 5mls per 6 litres changed, not what the LFS guy suggested. Me being me though I just went right ahead and did it when I got back from the LFS and then worried about it later.

So far the 5 danios and 1 panda seem ok, but I haven't done another water change yet. Ammonia is ok at the mo but I am worrying about the effect my next water change will have on my panda. I posted earlier what I was doing with the changes, am I doing it right?

 

[Fishy monkey]

Just bumping cos I'll be doing another w/c tomorrow and would really like to know for sure whether I'm doing things right

 

[librarygirl]

Yes it sounds like you are: temp matched water with dechlorinator. Maybe check the dose and make sure you're using enough or not overdosing. Other than that I don't see anything wrong with the method you're using.

 

[Fishy monkey]

Yes it sounds like you are: temp matched water with dechlorinator. Maybe check the dose and make sure you're using enough or not overdosing. Other than that I don't see anything wrong with the method you're using.

Thanks, fingers crossed!

 

[marsh]

I had a similar experience feeling pulled in opposite directions from the local shop employees and the online community. There are many schools of thought about fish care. Online you hear all the new methods and people are actively engaging one another as hobbyists and sharing discoveries and blueprints as they develop their methods, it's quite exciting.

My lfs people thought I was a kook for doing a fish-less cycle, but I was glad I used pure ammonia because the initial spike of ammonia is so high, 5.0 ppm and very dark green, that I was certain I could read the test results with little gray area or murky readings. And my cycle was complete in about 3 weeks, no bacterial starter product used, only a plant from a lfs.

 

[Fishy monkey]

Well after putting off the water change for as long as I dared I finally did it yesterday, pleased to report the panda survived
Still don't know what happened with the others but have to assume they were weak stock.

And I also found some ammonia online, so have restarted my QT, just put the water in it so will start dosing the ammonia tomorrow