Tank finally cycled! Three questions...

[cowgrlw]

Hi everyone,

After 5 weeks of fishless cycling, the tank has finally cycled! YAYYY!! For two mornings in a row, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, and Nitrates are consistently just under 5 ppm. So I will definitely be fish shopping on Saturday -- at last!!

I won't be doing a water change because I did one 7 days ago and the nitrates are not high enough to warrant another one. The pH went up to 8.0 a few days after a 50% water change last Thursday, but it has dropped back to around 7.4 by itself. The fish I want to get (guppies and tetras) need the pH to be between 6.2 and 6.7, so I need to add a little filtered water to fix that. (Our filtered water is acidic.) But I'm wondering how to handle that once I get the fish settled.

I have put salt in the tank water right from the start. Yes, this is a freshwater aquarium but I understand that the salt is good for fish health and it is not in significant enough concentration to bother the fish. I have a US 29 gallon tank and I used 6 tbsps of salt to start, and I would normally top it up proportionally with each water change. (This is what we did with our pearlscale goldfish before, too.) I also use water conditioner even though we don't have chlorinated water (we're on a well), just for the overall fish health part of it.

So three questions:

1) How should I fix the pH level? I'm thinking of adding 2-4 cups of water at a time, then testing the water 20 minutes after each addition until I get to the proper level. Do you think that will work, or will it take ages that way? I haven't a clue how to do this.

2) I have to learn how much of the water I replace with in a pwc should be filtered water (i.e., acidic water) to keep the appropriate pH levels in the tank. That's going to take me a bit of time to do, as I've never had to figure this out before. Would it really bother the fish if the pH was messed up for a little while, but not constantly? I'm a little paranoid that our well water will hurt the little guys if I don't learn how to fix the pH up quickly enough. I have only today and tomorrow to experiment with it before the fish will be in there.

3) Do any/all of you add salt to your freshwater tanks? Is it a good idea, or am I just being overly cautious?

That's all for now. Thanks!

Wendy (excited for fish shopping in two days!)

 

[Bluethumb]

I add a little when I'm adding new water. I always do it when a fish seems sick bc it can help.

 

[PNWaquarist]

I don't know much about guppies, but most tetras will be fine at pH 7.4. That's the upper end of where they'll be happy, but it's also close to the conditions where the fish are raised in captivity. Having a steady pH and GH is more important. If you want to slowly lower your tank's pH, add peat pellets to your filter. (This will also lightly stain your water, but you can control this via the amount of pellets you add and your water changes.)

I would not add salt to your water. Tetras like soft water and your well water certainly contains enough dissolved ions already. I don't know about the guppies, but the salt will probably do more harm than good to the tetras. I'd do an 80% water change and refill with unsalted water.

On the other hand, using water conditioner is always a good idea.

 

[Andy Sager]

It will really depend on where you are getting your fish from to determine what PH you should be keeping the fish at. Hardness may be a bigger issue than PH. Many S. American fish for the pet trade are bred in Florida where the water PH is in the upper 7s to lower 8s but the hardness is more on the soft side for the fish farms in the central FL area while much higher in the Southern areas of FL. The second most common place is the Far East which will have a different water parameter. So you need to know where and what your fish are coming from before altering your water.
There seems to be this generalization of what is best for fish but it really only applies to wild fish. In your case, most of the Guppies and Tetras you will probably be getting will be tank raised ones. For starters however, Guppies and Tetras are not really a good mix. Tetras, even the most "non nibblers" will most likely see a male Guppy's tail as something to eat. You may want to reconsider this mix.

Salt is a constant debate amongst aquarists. Some use it on everything, some only livebearers and some not at all. I personally use it on certain fish but not all. It all depends on the general hardness level I am trying to achieve. For me, in your mix, I would salt the guppies but not the tetras so another reason to not mix them.

As for water changes, keep this in mind, fish, in general, don;t like large changes in just about anything. This is why for the past 50 years that I have been keeping fish, I only change about 10%- 15% of the water volume weekly in order to not have large scale changes in the tanks. This has been my way of controlling nitrate accumulation as well as I don;t overstock my tanks. I was trained by the following: " If your nitrates get that high in a week that your fish are in jeopardy, then you have too many fish or not enough filtration." You may want to keep that in mind as you go forward. Should you need to do a large scale water change for the fish's safety, you can use a drip system ( siphon hose with a valve on the end) to slowly add the new water back into the tank. If you do this over the course of a few hours ( depending on how much of a change the new water is from the old water) it will be less of a stress for the fish. In some cases, you may need to do it over the course of a couple of days. Again, this is all subject to how different the waters are from each other. For example: in my 30 gal tank that has a PH of 6.5, I will pour 1 gal of my well water which is 8.4 directly into the tank and then wait 30-45 minutes then drip the rest of the 2 gals into the tank. 1 gal won't alter the water chemistry that much in a 30 gal tank but 3 gals will. When I check the tank the following day, the ph is within .2 of the original so I know this works.

What I would recommend is talking to the shop you are getting your fish from before going there to know what their water parameters are for their tanks and if they have different parameters for different fish. THEN you can adjust your tank accordingly.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ben300]

Fresh water fish are very hearty fish and about once a month I do add salt to my tank because it help with stress, electrolytes in the water, helps clean it too, and helps the slim on the fish. And mostly if your Nitrates, ammonia levels aren't crazy high your fish will be fine and if something is going wrong in your tank do a water change and check filter


30 gallon reef, 40 gallon pleco tank

 

[PNWaquarist]

Corys also hate salt. Even more so than tetras.

 

[Masha]

I'd be careful of doing anything to mess with the PH unless you really HAVE to (that is, you get super sensitive fish or your water is really off the charts low or high)

Apparently the thing about PH is not so much whether its 6.5 or 7.5 or whatever it is, but that it must not change much. If you acclimatize your fish carefully when you add them to the tank, giving them PLENTY of time to get used to the change in the water parameters, they should be fine. As long as that PH is steady, they won't be worried by it.

If you start adding filtered water etc to try and get the PH to x or y, the chances are that you'll get it wrong every now and then, and the consequent swing in PH will be far more of a stress to the fish.

One of the most important lessons I've learnt about aquarium keeping is that most of the time it's better to leave things alone, rather than to mess with them. Adding medications, or salt, or fiddling with the PH, all that stuff makes you feel like you are doing the right thing but often it just stresses the fish.

 

[Fishy Smell]

Great post from Andy, particularly very comforting to know that someone with that level of experience does water changes in the exact same way that I do and for the same reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[cowgrlw]

~sigh~ I just can't catch a break, can I? So, I'll need at least another week of cycling before I can get fish, IF I do an 80% water change because, when I did a 50% water change just over a week ago, it changed everything -- ammonia and nitrites went up, nitrates disappeared, and the pH spiked up to 8.0. If that happens again, which it probably will, I'll need another week to get everything back to cycled again. Or I could just get guppies for now and figure the rest of the fish out later. But will 3 cobra guppies be enough to keep the bacteria alive in a US 29 gallon tank for a week or two (or three) until I can find/get more fish?

I've been gathering fish info from this site: Beginner Fish: Tropical Fish for Beginners in Freshwater Aquariums
If anyone knows of a better resource, I'd be happy to hear about it. That site tells the water parameters, species compatability, adult size, and disposition of each species. I had it all planned out, or so I thought. I only want small peaceful fish that are not longer than 2" when full grown, and all males. This is what I was planning to get (1 of each) over the next month or so:

cherry barb
pearl danio
golden cobra guppy or yellow guppy (don't know the species)
green cobra guppy
orange-tail guppy
metallic blue star guppy
harlequin rasbora
pineapple platy
neon tetra
cardinal tetra
rummynose or silver tip tetra
glowlight tetra
2 red cherry shrimp

So a total of 12 small peaceful community fish and two shrimp. But now, from Andy Sager said (and what I read elsewhere since), I can't have tetras -- even if I get rid of the salt -- because I intend to have guppies and because tetras need soft water, which I don't have. That's really disappointing news and I really don't know what to do now. This is what I had read elsewhere about the soft/hard water dilemma, as far as the fish species are concerned:

"One of the paradoxes in freshwater fishkeeping is that while most fish naturally from soft water environments will thrive in hard water aquaria, the reverse is almost universally not true. Tetras, Barbs, Gouramis, Corydoras catfish and Angelfish are all examples of originally soft water fish that are routinely and successfully kept in hard water community tanks. But Livebearers, Central American cichlids and Rift Valley cichlids almost never adapt to soft and acidic water conditions. In other words, if all you want is a mixed community tank, then hard and alkaline water will allow you to mix Platies, Neons and Corydoras without problems." from The Soft Water Aquarium: Risks and Benefits

What are your thoughts on that, Andy?

I wanted all really small fish because I'm afraid if some get larger, they're more likely to pick on the smaller ones -- even if they're not supposed to. My daughter had a fancy goldfish that tore her big pearlscale goldfish's tail almost completely off, an algae eater that was more interested in trying to eat the two goldfish than algae, and a clown pleco that spiked the two goldfish every chance he got. Those fish have been either rehomed or deceased, and I was really hoping for some peace and harmony for a change now that I've taken over the tank. And colour. Lots of colour. Sounds like this is going to be even harder than it already has been. I think I need to do more research before heading to the fish store. Trying to do things the right way is a very lengthy and bumpy process. Like taking the road less travelled, so to speak.

How does one find out what the water hardness level is? We're not on town water, we're on a well, so ours is groundwater.

Thanks to Andy Sager, Masha, and PNWaquarist for the very detailed information. Seems I have a whole lot more to think about.

Wendy

 

[PNWaquarist]

Most of the fish that you listed above need to be in schools of 6+. They will not do well as single individuals.

You can test your water hardness (GH) by purchasing a GH test kit. You may be able to do several species of tetra (but maybe not Cardinals) even if your water is moderately hard. The GH test kit will give you an idea of where you stand.

Also, if your tank is cycled, doing water changes shouldn't affect your beneficial bacteria. The vast majority of it lives in the filter media. As long as it's not allowed to dry out, it'll survive. I don't know why your ammonia and nitrites went up after a water change. It sounds like your tank isn't fully cycled.

 

[cowgrlw]

PNWaquarist, I'm so glad you replied to my posts. I *had* read about the guppies and tetras "making an impressive display in schools of 10 or more" but I thought that was a suggestion, not a requirement. Clearly, I should have done more research. I read about it elsewhere after seeing what you said and verified that there should be a minimum of 6 of each, so I'll have to decide which two types of fish I want most -- flashy tetras or graceful guppies, not both.

Now you have me doubting everything I thought I knew, but that's a *good* thing and I really do appreciate it. So, please let me check with you if I'm right on these points then. I want to do this right and have happy, healthy fish.

1) I can get up to 14 fish for a US 29 gal tank, if I go with the 1" of fish per gallon rule. Most of the fish I planned to get are 2" max.

2) I think the platys can be kept as individuals, right? So, if that's right, I can get 2 of them after getting 2 schools of 6 tetras or guppies. Or, if I get just one school of 6 tetras or guppies, I could get 6 different platys. Or up to 11 platys of the 2.5" size if I go with just platys. Hmm... that gives me something else to think about now. I had only considered the pineapple platy because of its size. I'll have to give this more thought, but I'd really appreciate your advice on the idea.

3) I think that the shrimp don't count as "fish" in that "inches of fish per gallon" rule because they don't contribute to polluting the tank in the same way. Is that correct?

4) How many shrimp should I have? The Big Al's told me I should get at least 2 or I'd never see them because they're timid and they tend to hide when they're by themselves. If I have 2, they'll move around the tank together or at least I think they will.

5) It seems that platys and tetras can handle the aquarium salt I have in the tank now, but I'm thinking of slowly easing off it over the next few water changes. I'll probably keep some in, but not as much as I have now. Do you think it's a good idea to slowly ease the salt content down?

And the last big question:
6) My parameters this morning are Ammonia slightly above 0 but way below 0.25 (not green at all, but not brilliant yellow either), Nitrites 0, Nitrates nearly 5, pH 7.2. Other than the pH still dropping, this is what I've had for the past 4 days, so I think I'm cycled, right? I've been dosing to 0.5 ppm (with 3/4 tsp ammonia) the past 3 days. I turned the heater back down yesterday, so the water is now 78F. I reduced it a bit more so it will be 76F in the end. I think I'm ready for fish now. What do you think?

I think I should be able to pick up the GH and KH test kit today. Thanks for letting me know about it.

Thank you, most sincerely, for all your help PNWaquarist.
Wendy

 

[Masha]

cowgrlw, that one fish per gallon rule is really outdated...it's just not a good guideline for how many fish you can keep.

Which really is not a helpful answer!

I found Aqadvisor really useful - at least as a start for figuring out what fish you can keep. Have a look AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor

It allows you to fill in your tank parameters and add fish, and gives you an estimate of whether that will work. It's not perfect, but it's better than the 1 fish per gallon rule. Hope it helps!

 

[PNWaquarist]

I concur about AqAdvisor. It's not perfect and it's said by some to be on the conservative side (which is probably a good thing), but it's a really good place to start.

If you're using the API kit, it's unlikely that you'll ever see a bright yellow for a zero ammonia reading. I've always seen yellow with a very faint hint of green. I'm confident that my tank is fully cycled, as my nitrite readings are always a clear light blue (as opposed to the gray-blue of low nitrate levels) and my fish do not show any signs of stress. It sounds like your tank is probably cycled. To tell for sure, dose with 3 ppm ammonia one morning and see if you're getting the same results 24 hours later (~0 ppm ammonia and 0 ppm nitrites). If so, you're done. At that point, I would do a 70% water change (mostly to get rid of the added salt, if you're adding tetras). Stop adding salt during your regular water changes from then on, and you should be fine.

Your pH should stop dropping once you stop dosing with ammonia. This has been happening because the nitrifying bacteria that you've been growing produce acidic waste. This is normal during cycling.

I've never kept platys or shrimp, so I'm afraid that I won't be of much help there.

You're asking all the right questions, and it's best to do so now rather than later. Good luck!

 

[cowgrlw]

Thanks, Masha, for the link to the AqAdvisor. I have to gather all the details about the tank and equipment before I can do that, but I will do it.

Thank you PNWaquarist for all your help and advice.

The tank is fully cycled and I got three little fish today. I decided to go with the platys, at least for now, as they don't mind the salt or the water hardness. I plan to lower the salt content over time through partial water changes.

I got a Glowlight Sunset Platy, a Red Wag Balloon Platy, and a Yellow Mickey Mouse Platy this morning. I would have gotten 3 more different species, but those were in a quarantine tank so it will be a few more days before they'll sell them. Two other brand new species I really wanted had dead and sick fish in the tanks, so I had to pass those up for now. Too bad... they were beautiful.

So far, the fish seem happy enough. The tank has lots of plastic plants, which they weren't at all used to at the Big Al's Aquarium, so they have plenty of places to hide. They're curious, going around the tank and eating bubbles off the plants and sides of the tank. They were all a bit nippy with each other at first, but they're fine now. The red one is very tiny and timid around humans, but was bossy with the others at first. They're all swimming and hanging out together now, so I hope he'll warm up to us humans as time goes on.

I'll post pics when I'm able to get some. They scoot away when I get near the tank with the camera, so it will take a bit of time, I think. I love them all already. They're all so cute and it's so heartwarming to see life in the tank again -- finally!

Thanks again for all your help. I have no doubt I'll be back again with questions as things crop up. I'll definitely post some pics when I can get them.

Sincerely,
Wendy

 

[Masha]

That's wonderful! Best of luck

 

[trennamw]

You're getting tons of great advice here. I will repeat the recommendation to check your GH (your fish store can likely do it for you) and shoot for stable, not perfect, pH.

I do water changes with a slow siphon back in too, in part to avoid lifting so much water and in part because I supplement my extremely soft water and what goes in is always a little different than what comes out. I use airline tubing and put the bucket of new water up high. Main concern is not letting filter media dry out in the process. I'm only 4 months in but even keeping delicate Otos I've only lost one fish in this tank (an Oto, when I moved), despite imperfect and sometimes fluctuating pH. My LFS had me start using a hydroponic pH kit because it shows 3-10 in big increments, told me to get the tank between 6 and 8 and then let it be whatever number in that range it will stay at stably.

As for stocking you might like to check amazon for The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums by Boruchowitz. It's electronic or hard copy. Some of it is outdated but it has a bunch of stocking schemes for a 29 gallon, one specific to tiny fish and a few that start with Platys. All are meant for beginners.

As for salt ... I have used salt as I felt it was the thing that turned my luck keeping bettas. When I put it in my 29 gallon at the rate suggested on the box (I think it's one heaping tablespoon per 5 gallons), the fish didn't seem to notice but I lost both mystery snails. Not the pond or Malaysian trumpet snails.

I'd suggest a group of 10 of some kind of tetra or rasbora, then fill in with 6 each of a few small fish.

Some cleaners would be a good idea. I prefer Otos be a use they eat so many different things, but they are really delicate. I get them from a very good LFS and drip acclimate them, and it has to be after the tank is set up awhile. I keep a ghost shrimp population of about 6-8, and after some research I chose to add Malaysian trumpet snails to clean the crevices till my sand (some say they'll take over my tank but all is well so far). Some Pygmy multi striped loaches are helping clean too, and keep the snails controlled. Mystery snails are pretty and fascinating but really dirty compared to how much they clean.

And yes I'd do a big water change before stocking further, just because you're best off with nitrates being down from the start, and in the easier to read ranges of the test. And there's a lot about new water that benefits fish.








Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.

 

[Autumnsky]

You are getting some world class help from these guys here!!! Glad also you are doing well and learning fast!

Two things I was thinking was that the dechlorinator is also for neutralizing heavy metals, so although you are fortunate to not have any Chlorine or Chloramines, you definitely could have heavy metals.

So Prime is the preferred default for water safety. Just make sure you have treatment which deals with the heavy metals.

pH can be higher initially. When you get your test kit, you can check it straight out of the faucet and then wait 24 hours or so and it will likely be different, as you experienced.

Stable pH is the key. Messing with pH is not something to be done easily or simply. I would recommend not. It is a chore for even seasoned aquarium keepers!

Glad you are loving your new fish. And good move to keep on going and not buy any sickly fish or fish with sickly fish!

 

[cowgrlw]

New Fish Pics!! and a bully...

Hi everyone!

Here are my three new fish! The mickey mouse platy is Mickey (of course!) is the biggest (about 1.5"), the red wag balloon platy is Mars (like the red planet) and he's the smallest (nickel-sized), and the glowlight sunset platy is Sundog (he's about 1.25").

It seems I've gotten a bully in the lot, though. They were all fine until I started feeding them. Now Mickey has suddenly decided he's king of the tank and he's been ramming Sundog in the side every chance he gets. Mars is small but mighty, and can hold his own against the bigger Mickey. He doesn't pick on Sundog at all, though. I couldn't find Sundog anywhere and, after quite a bit of searching, I found him hiding in the thickest part of the biggest plant. He stays there all the time, sitting on one of the leaves, or he's on the bottom of the tank in the darkest corner hiding. I think I need to take Mickey out and put him in another tank for a while before he stresses Sundog to death. Is that a good idea? I'm not sure if it will fix this but, if not, I might have to take him back to the fish store and get another one.

I read on one of the forums that it's a good idea to get more fish in the tank so the bully won't focus so much on Sundog. That's what I planned, but I think I'll have to take Mickey out for a while, anyway. Any advice would be appreciated.

Wendy

 

[Andy Sager]

Sorry, was away from my computer for a few days so I just saw your post @ #9
One of the downsides to fishless cycling is you don;t really know what the tank can hold at the end of the "cycle". When a tank finishes cycling, meaning that the ammonia & nitrite levels have gone both up then back down to 0, it just means that there is enough bacteria present to consume and convert the ammonia and nitrites present in the water AT THAT TIME to the less toxic nitrate form. So if you cycled a tank with 1 small fish or 100 small fish or 1 large fish or a bunch of large fish, they are not interchangeable. A tank that was cycled with 1 small fish will not support 1 large fish ( assuming it poops like a regular large fish ) without a "re-cycling" period because there just won;t be enough bacteria present to consume the difference in ammonia output. Since the bacteria bed is a living breathing "thing" it grows and shrinks on a continual basis based on the amount of ammonia being produced. Thankfully, the reproduction period for these bacteria is quite fast so it happens in many cases without you even realizing it ( assuming you don;t have a meter in the water testing levels on a continuous basis.) This may have been previously covered by the others on this thread but in reality, you do more harm then good when you change water during a cycling period. WHAT?????? Yes, by diluting the ammonia or nitrite amount in the water, you create a smaller bacteria bed. So at no time, in a newly cycled aquarium, is it a safe thing to add a large quantity of new fish unless you are removing an equal amount of ammonia production in the fish you are removing. This is why when we did it "old school" fish-in style, we knew that if there were 10 fish in the tank when the cycle finished, the tank was cycled for those 10 fish or 10 similar sized fish ( again assuming comparable ammonia production.) We would then add fish slowly to not have any recycling challenges.

As for PH, again, I believe it was covered, don;t change it unless the fish really demand a different PH level. As the article you quoted stated, there are certain fish that just will not do well in lower PHs while many ( or most) will adapt to a higher PH level. The Platys you chose will do better in higher PH water anyway so no need to mess with it.

I'd like to address some things written in this thread by the others: As for Ben300's post @#5, Salt, does not evaporate so continually adding it will only increase the salinity and eventually kill the fish if it gets too high. Water changes are a better solution to adding back electrolytes to the water than just adding salt is. PLUS, you do water changes for other reason's as well, especially to reduce the nitrate level present in the tank. depending on your fish load, changing water once a month may kill more fish than save them. This is why a weekly water change regamin of 10%-15% of volume will have a better effect on the fish provided the tank is not overstocked and the nitrate level gets too high in the week's time.

The bacteria bed: the nitrifying bacteria are found anywhere in the tank where there is good oxygen levels. While the filter is the usual place that high oxygenated water exists, it's not the only place in the tank that it exists. Before there were outside HOB filters, there were inside the tank corner bubblers and they got changed monthly without killing the fish from a lack of bacteria because the bed was also found in the gravel bed as well. So you need to be aware that when doing cleaning, you need to not over clean the substrate just as you don;t want to over clean the filter.

Lastly, (because I tend to write long posts and people get upset with me ) your fish selection is not really very compatible. Most of the non livebearers you mentioned should be in schools of more than 1 and will not generally school with the other types just because they are alone. It does happen, but not always. As for the livebearers you chose, Guppies, Platys, you should put them in the tank in the ratio of 1 male to 2 females so that you can have some harmony in the tank. That means if you are going to get 3 different types of platys, one should be a male and the others females. Unfortunately, I can't tell from the middle pic but the other 2 fish are both males which, even if the third is another male, that's why there is a "bully" amongst them. ("Boys will be boys." lol ) It shouldn;t be too much of a problem unless the third is a female at which point I would suggest you either remove the female or add more females to get that 2/1 ratio. Same applies to the Guppies when you get them.

I hope some of this helps.

 

[cowgrlw]

Thanks, Andy Sager, for all your good advice. Much appreciated! My fish are all males.

I did some research around at the fish forums and communities about the bully platy. It seems that it doesn't matter that they're all males, it has more to do with that particular fish's personality. There are always bullies somewhere and, sometimes, you're unlucky enough to get one. Many people said they keep all males in platys and other species, and all different platys like I have, and they have no problems at all. Some said that they had one bully that they took back to the fish store, then got a different platy that gave them no problems. I found no information at all that said platys had to be kept in groups, just that they get along with other platys and most other fish well. And I have no intention of getting females as I don't want to deal with fish breeding. From what I read, bringing females into the mix breeds its own kind of trouble.

Sundog still isn't looking well. He comes up to eat, but very hesitantly. He seems to eat well, but slowly. He spends most of his time lying on the bottom between two glass beads. He rarely does anything else, so he might have been injured to the point where he will die soon. I hope not, but time will tell. I might not have noticed the problem in time to save him. I put in a plastic divider to keep them apart for the time being. If Sundog recovers, I may take Mickey back to the fish store and get another. I'm planning to buy 3 more on the next trip up. Mars and Sundog get along just fine, by the way. Mickey is the problem.

Thanks again for your advice.

Wendy