Yet another cycling thread (with records!)

[octopuscats]

I'm mostly wondering where to go from here. I set up my tank about three or four weeks ago and have been doing fishless cycling. Unfortunately I haven't been around very much lately, so I haven't been able to stay on top of my readings like I should have. Here's a sample of what they've looked like the last few days, so I can get some proper advice:

Nov 26
NH3 - ~0.16ppm
PH - 7.8?
Nitrite 1.6
Nitrate 50

Nov 27
Readings were too high, did a water change and forgot to retest the levels afterwards

Dec 1
PH 8.0
NH3 2.4ppm
Nitrite 3.3/off chart
Nitrate 110/off chart

After 1st water change:
PH 8.0
NH3 <0.06ppm
Nitrite 1.6
Nitrate 50

After 2nd water change:
NH3 <0.06ppm
Nitrite 0.8
Nitrate 20

Dec 2
PH 8.0
NH3 <0.06ppm
Nitrite ~3.3?
Nitrate 50

I'm just not really sure what I should be doing past this point. It seems like my ammonia is very stable if not lowering (it's hard to tell at this point because it's on the low end of the colour chart), but my nitrites/nitrates keep soaring. Should I leave the tank alone and see if the nitrites eventually disappear, or should I keep doing water changes to regulate the nitr(i/a)te levels? I'm getting a bit impatient by now and would love some fish in my tank

Edit: Additional information that might be useful - It's a 5.5G tank kept at a steady temperature of 25C/77F. I did have a handful of plants in there (Moneywort and wisteria), but unfortunately the built-in light in my tank isn't strong enough and they've been slowly dying. I will definitely get a stronger light once the whole desk gets organized, but is it possible that's contributing to my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels?

 

[mistersprinkles]

I'm mostly wondering where to go from here. I set up my tank about three or four weeks ago and have been doing fishless cycling. Unfortunately I haven't been around very much lately, so I haven't been able to stay on top of my readings like I should have. Here's a sample of what they've looked like the last few days, so I can get some proper advice:

Nov 26
NH3 - ~0.16ppm
PH - 7.8?
Nitrite 1.6
Nitrate 50

Nov 27
Readings were too high, did a water change and forgot to retest the levels afterwards

Dec 1
PH 8.0
NH3 2.4ppm
Nitrite 3.3/off chart
Nitrate 110/off chart

After 1st water change:
PH 8.0
NH3 <0.06ppm
Nitrite 1.6
Nitrate 50

After 2nd water change:
NH3 <0.06ppm
Nitrite 0.8
Nitrate 20

Dec 2
PH 8.0
NH3 <0.06ppm
Nitrite ~3.3?
Nitrate 50

I'm just not really sure what I should be doing past this point. It seems like my ammonia is very stable if not lowering (it's hard to tell at this point because it's on the low end of the colour chart), but my nitrites/nitrates keep soaring. Should I leave the tank alone and see if the nitrites eventually disappear, or should I keep doing water changes to regulate the nitr(i/a)te levels? I'm getting a bit impatient by now and would love some fish in my tank

Edit: Additional information that might be useful - It's a 5.5G tank kept at a steady temperature of 25C/77F. I did have a handful of plants in there (Moneywort and wisteria), but unfortunately the built-in light in my tank isn't strong enough and they've been slowly dying. I will definitely get a stronger light once the whole desk gets organized, but is it possible that's contributing to my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels?

How long after the daily addition of ammonia are you testing? You should test just before the daily addition of ammonia. Your tank is still cycling. It's odd that you're getting so much nitrate while still seeing ammonia and nitrite. How much ammonia are you adding per day?

The plants you chose do not do well without co2. Regardless of light choice. Use low light plants that do ok without co2. Java fern. Java moss. Anubias. Crypt wendii.

 

[octopuscats]

I usually test within about 20 minutes of adding the ammonia so it has time to distribute throughout the tank. I haven't been adding ammonia lately though because I've been trying to manage my nitrates/nitrites. Should I still keep adding it? When I do add it, it's usually whatever I can pour into the cap the bottle comes with. If I still think it's too low, I'll add more. Not very scientific, I know.

Thanks for the plant recommendations! I had no idea mine need co2. I had heard they were good for beginners so I just got them. Now I feel bad for the poor plants.

 

[Masha]

It's pretty important to be able to control the amount of amonia you add. One way is to get a pipette or dripper and count drops...20 drops is roughly 1 ml

Or get a plastic syringe and use that to draw exact amount.

I also did what you did, just roughly measure with a spoon in my case, and it gets tough to ensure you are dosing correctly.

 

[mistersprinkles]

What you're supposed to do is add enough ammonia to get 4PPM the first day, then add that same amount every day after that until the tank is cycled. You use a measuring syringe that measures in mililiters.

You test daily BEFORE dosing the ammonia. Of course there's going to be ammonia and nitrite present if you're testing right after adding the ammonia. Wait 24 hours, then test.

 

[Masha]

What you're supposed to do is add enough ammonia to get 4PPM the first day, then add that same amount every day after that until the tank is cycled. You use a measuring syringe that measures in mililiters.

You test daily BEFORE dosing the ammonia. Of course there's going to be ammonia and nitrite present if you're testing right after adding the ammonia. Wait 24 hours, then test.

I'm not sure if I misread this, but this is not correct.

If you keep adding more ammonia to the tank every day, pretty soon you will have an enormous amount of ammonia.

With fishless cycling, the idea is to keep the ammonia at 4ppm (or whatever the amount is you decide on - 4ppm is pretty high).

So in other words, dose up to 4ppm. As long as the ammonia is not dropping, do nothing. When it starts dropping, still do nothing. When it's dropped down to about 1ppm - then you can dose it up to 4ppm again. Carry on like that.

Once you know how much ammonia gets your tank up to 4ppm, you don't need to keep measuring it after dosing ammonia, which is why it's convenient to measure out the ammonia in drops or with a syringe.

 

[threnjen]

Not everyone uses the same fishless cycling guideline as this site.
I used a different forum's guidelines and they DO teach to add the ammonia EVERY DAY, the same amount as the first day. Every single day until you see nitrites.

I started off doing the normal thing to go to 4ppm and waiting until it went down. waited, waited waited nothing happened. I was frustrated and complained, and then the forum guru instructed me I was using outdated instructions and needed to be doing the ammonia every day. A few days later, nitrites came out in force.

I had a PH crash which was unfortunate but easily solved with baking soda, but I can tell you I eventually cycled adding ammonia every day until I saw nitrites, and the cycle was much faster than the guidelines here suggest.
The ammonia level was outrageous at the end! Totally off the charts.
But at the end I could clear 5ppm ammonia into nitrates in less than 20 hours (I don't know exactly because I was sleeping for the last 8 hours)

Ongoing studies on that forum show that cycling occurs in 21-28 days using the ammonia overdose method.

I don't really bring it up though or try to spread the word because I don't want people here to get on my case since that doesn't seem to be how it's done in these parts.
I personally think the only negative possibility of too much ammonia is a ph crash and you can keep your ph up with baking soda really easily.

I see that around here people are spreading the word to use even LESS ammonia, so there is clearly a dissonance in techniques around the internet.
In the end I think it will all work, but I'm totally convinced that more ammonia makes it go faster.

 

[jlk]

It sounds like the main issue here is an excess of ammonia. If it was a 75g that you planned on overstocking with cichlids, nothing wrong with dosing to 4-5ppm.

As this is not the case and a 5g has very limited stocking options, I would do a big wc or two to drop all your numbers to zero. Add just enough ammonia to bring it up to .5ppm. Then let us know the results in 24 hours and we can go from there.

I am pretty sure your tank is cycled to its biological capacity but it simply can not go beyond this point. Overdosing ammonia simply results in excess of everything in a small volume of water and limited real estate for bacteria to flourish. Please ask if you have questions!

 

[Masha]

Not everyone uses the same fishless cycling guideline as this site.
I used a different forum's guidelines and they DO teach to add the ammonia EVERY DAY, the same amount as the first day. Every single day until you see nitrites.

I started off doing the normal thing to go to 4ppm and wait until it went down. waited, waited waited nothing happened. Then the forum guru told me I was using outdated instructions and needed to be doing the ammonia every day. A few days later, nitrites came out in force.

I had a PH crash which was unfortunate but easily solved with baking soda, but I can tell you I cycled adding ammonia every day until I saw nitrites, and the cycle was much faster than the guidelines here suggest.
The ammonia level was outrageous at the end!
But at the end I could clear 5ppm ammonia into nitrates in less than 20 hours (I don't know exactly because I was sleeping for the last 8 hours)

I don't really bring it up though or try to spread the word because I don't want people here to get on my case since that doesn't seem to be how it's done in these parts.
I personally think the only negative possibility of too much ammonia is a ph crash and you can keep your ph up with baking soda really easily.

Fair enough! There are different ways. My own experience was that too much ammonia resulted in incredibly high nitrite spikes, and although my cycle was not stalled it slowed down significantly at the nitrite stage.

I'm interested in this method though - but I must admit it doesn't really make sense to me! Why add more ammonia before it's being processed? If it really helps to have that much ammonia in the tank, why not just dump it all in the beginning and have it done with? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious. Don't want to take the thread too far off topic though, apologies to the OP.

 

[octopuscats]

It sounds like the main issue here is an excess of ammonia. If it was a 75g that you planned on overstocking with cichlids, nothing wrong with dosing to 4-5ppm.

As this is not the case and a 5g has very limited stocking options, I would do a big wc or two to drop all your numbers to zero. Add just enough ammonia to bring it up to .5ppm. Then let us know the results in 24 hours and we can go from there.

I am pretty sure your tank is cycled to its biological capacity but it simply can not go beyond this point. Overdosing ammonia simply results in excess of everything in a small volume of water and limited real estate for bacteria to flourish. Please ask if you have questions!

Yeah, in the past I always dosed up to 4ppm (as in, not 4ppms worth every day). I have a hunch my tank is cycled too, but I wanted to confirm with you guys first before throwing fish in. Anyways, I'm following your advice. Just did two 50% water changes, here's my results after waiting a bit for things to settle:
PH 7.75
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.8
Nitrate 5

I dosed up the ammonia to about .23ppm because my chart doesn't read any higher for my PH level. I'll get back to you guys in about 24 hours

 

[octopuscats]

Not quite 24 hours, but I just did a test again. Here are my results:

PH 9.0 (might be lower, had difficulty reading this)
Ammonia >1.34 (off the chart because of the PH increase, based on how the chart works I'm going to assume it's ~2.00)
Nitrite 3.3 (again, off the chart)
Nitrate 75 (had difficulty reading this one as well. Might be higher)

Should I do a water change or leave it alone to see if the ammonia works away on its own?

 

[jlk]

Is your tap ph this high? I would just leave it be for another day or two and see where things go.

 

[octopuscats]

It's probably closer to 8.0 because those are the readings I usually get, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was higher. My city is notorious for having very hard tap water.

 

[jlk]

It's probably closer to 8.0 because those are the readings I usually get, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was higher. My city is notorious for having very hard tap water.

Same with my city water!

Can you try a simple test? Set out a container of tap water with an airstone/bubbler. If you do not have an extra, just give the water a good stir every so often to release dissolved gasses. Test the ph in 24hours and let us know how it looks. This will tell us if it's simply your tap or if it's possible something in your tank is making it higher.

 

[octopuscats]

I'll definitely do a PH test of my tap water and let you know tomorrow what the result is.

New tank results, 48 hours after dosing the ammonia up:
PH 8.0
Ammonia 0.20ppm
Nitrite >3.3 (off chart)
Nitrate >110 (off chart)

Based on how quickly the ammonia dropped, do you guys think I'm good to go? Should I do a water change to bring the nitrates and nitrites back down? Thanks everyone for being so helpful and patient with me

 

[threnjen]

You need to wait for the nitrItes to clear, but you are very close indeed.
You need to be able to dose your ammonia and have it all clear to nitrates within 24 hours, no nitrItes
You're so close!!

Then do the biggest WC you can to get the nitrates out and you are good to go

 

[octopuscats]

Haven't been home the last two nights so the tank has been untouched since I did my last measurement (no WC, no NH3 added). Here's my results from tonight, which unfortunately isn't showing a shift from nitrites to nitrates. Is it normal for that bacteria to take so long to develop?

PH 8.0
Ammonia <0.06ppm
Nitrites >3.3/off chart
Nitrates 110/off chart

I'm going to do a 50% water change to see if that helps get things moving again. For the record, my tap water's PH reads at about 9.0, maybe even a bit higher.

 

[jlk]

You really do have quite a high ph for your tap! Have you ever considered cutting it with RO to lower this a bit? Unless you plan on keeping fish that prefer high ph water, which is a different story.

It is normal for bacteria to take this long to establish and grow. Your ammonia bacteria are fairly well established but it normally takes 2-3x as long for your nitrite>nitrate bacteria to develop. They are definitely there because you have a ton of nitrate but they can not handle the entire dose of ammonia yet. Keep us posted!

 

[octopuscats]

Do I need to cut the PH if my tank water regularly tests at 8.0? I don't even quite understand how the happens, but I'm assuming maybe it has something to do with my sand substrate changing the balance?

And thanks for the encouragement! I'm a bit worried because I'm going to be out of town for about a week around Christmas time and I don't think any of my roommates will be home to help take care of the tank. Will the tank be able to survive that long on its own, or will I have to start all over from square one?

 

[jlk]

Your tank will be fine while your away! Just dose ammonia before you leave and do not worry! When my main qt tank is not use, I dose ammonia maybe 1-2x a week but its gone for almost two weeks before without ammonia and I have never had issue with keeping it cycled.

The ph is a bit odd though. I thought the tap test would have shown it drop from 9 straight from your tap down to 8 (or so) after 24 hours of aeration but it didnt. So, its possible it just may take a bit longer for it to drop or there may be something in your tank lowering it a bit.