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Old 07-16-2004, 02:06 AM   #31
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I agree with you totally quarryshark, but i don't think cleaner shrimp are served for dinner

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Old 07-16-2004, 05:52 AM   #32
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A few years ago 101 dalmations came out again. and many pet stores were selling dalmation pups. Dalmations are high strung and not really good with kids, (for the most part I know there are exceptions) but everyone was selling them. Should we also boycot them?
fisherman were collecting tuna and dolphins were killed in the process, when there was an uproar from the public, collection methods changed.
You do not live in a perfect world. It will never be perfect. If we decided to boycott every place that couldnt prove it didnt sell cyanide caught fish, (another environmental issue) none of us would have any. We do what we can where we can.
If you feel that strongly about it, write them a note.
This is the best way. If everyone doesn't know about it then nothing will change.

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Old 07-16-2004, 07:35 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BBReef
but i don't think cleaner shrimp are served for dinner
LOL, good point!!
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Old 07-16-2004, 09:17 AM   #34
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Good topic saberry. I am totally against buying animals that have a 99% chance of not making past two months. I noticed liveaquaria.com also sells them. I do not think it is possible to boycot a busienss completely. Education is the answer. If we can decrease demand for these fish, collection will go down. It is reverse supply and demand. I like the referance to 101 Dalmations. Finding Nemo did the same thing. it was great exposure to the saltwater aquarium world, but I fear it sent many,many,many Nemos and Doris to their deaths. Very sad.
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Old 07-16-2004, 09:56 AM   #35
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IMO, saberry has done exactly what they should have. It's a subject that means something to you. It meant enough that you wanted to say something and you did so in a mature way and in a way to encourage debate. Debate is healthy and this is the place for it. I would also agree that writing the retailer that supplies the fish would also be worth it. Perhaps (and this is all too often the case) the seller, LFS or online retailer may simply not know. If your letter to the seller is mature and straight forward, simply informational. You may affect their practices. Best case scenario, they stop selling them, worst case scenario, nothing happens. But you can probably hope for at least additional informaiton to be included with the fish's description.

as for the politics... OMG! Don't get me started! (too late... MONKEY FOR PRESIDENT!!)
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Old 07-16-2004, 11:37 AM   #36
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I think there is an aspect of this that has been over looked. I took the time to read (mostly) the previous post, so I dont think this has been mentioned...Experience level. We have a wide range of experience on this board and one or two others (that are very good as well.) I have been in the hobby for over 10 years...much of my knowledge has been gained since I joined forums like this several years ago. Despite that, I still would not feel confident about purchasing an Idol (especially on line) without a large amount of research. However, I do know several people that I feel have more than enough experience to try keeping one. So whats my point....On a scale of one to ten... (one being "damsel" and 10 being "idol") ...If I am at an experience level 8 and capable of keeping an octopus, I dont want my only options to be things like Green Chromis and 4 stripe damsels.

That being said...Leave these beautiful creatures where they belong. In the ocean. Very very few of us have the experience, time, money, or set up to be able to keep something that delicate. It should be something that can be aquired, but not easily.

The only other comment I have is to Jim (dive master). Everyone else is keeping it civil and friendly. Is there anything we can do to help you do the same?

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Old 07-16-2004, 11:47 AM   #37
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Does anyone think it is irresponsible to sell Moorish Idols over the internet as this site does?
Yes (see more on this below).
I think to say these are difficult to keep is a major understatement.
That's the problem here. Acroporas are often labeled as "difficult", but how many are kept successfully? Hundreds of thousands. Idols are not difficult to keep, they are virtually impossible. They require a continual supply of live sponges and algae, and must have an aquarium of 500g+ (length being most important) to even have a chance to survive at all.
Im guessing but probably not correct wouldnt most be tank raised?
They are not tank raised. The vast majority of marine fish are wild-caught.
they dont all die lots of people do ok with them
I've never heard of one surviving in captivity for more than a year. I would love to see a tank that housed them successfully for more than a year. Approx. 95% of captive Moorish Idols perish within 2-4 months.

Perhaps the only way someone will ever discover the secret is if they are freely available to all.
I do agree with this to an extent. Having been in the reef-keeping hobby for 14+ years, I see many marine specimens kept now which were thought 100% impossible a short 10 years ago. IMO, the (responsible) hobbyist contributes greatly (yes, contributes) to the coral reefs of the world. We make the reefs *visible* (out of sight, out of mind), and appreciated. We have also realized many great gains - coral fragging, tridacnid clam captive reproduction, and captive breeding of marine fish - are all a direct result of our hobby.

This is, however, a 2-part responsibility. Aquarists need to research, research, research. LFS's and e-tailers should provide complete information on care & requirements. "Difficult" is not adequate. If they had written "Extremely difficult, requires 500+ gallon tank, and continual supply of live foods -- even given these conditions, this fish does not often survive in captivity. Please research fully before purchasing!" - then I would not be entirely opposed to their sale. IMO, they are being unethical by intentionally omitting information.
From what I understand, a lot of LFS (At least the ones by me) and online vendors don't even pick out the livestock that they receive. They have a supplier that ships them livestock and a list of whats in it and they get what they get.
I am friends with a few LFS owners, and couple online vendors of marine fish/corals. They all tell me that this is almost completely untrue, unless there is some confusion in the ordering - but that this happens very rarely. A couple have told me that this is the "line" usually handed out to people when they question why a certain fish, coral, etc. is being offered for sale.
by the way and just for the record I hate animal rights activist those people need to get a clue
And that clue would be?
A few years ago 101 dalmations came out again. and many pet stores were selling dalmation pups. Dalmations are high strung and not really good with kids, (for the most part I know there are exceptions) but everyone was selling them. Should we also boycot them?
If they were not properly and completely educating the buyer as to the breed's care needs and dispostion, then, IMO, yes.
If you feel that strongly about it, write them a note.
IMO, this is the best thing you can do. 10 letters will have far more impact than 10 people not buying from that store.
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Old 07-16-2004, 12:11 PM   #38
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I have also read anenomes have 1/20-1/80th the lifespan in captivity compared to the wild. But a lot of people keep anenomes anyways.

And if we are being serious about the "keep em in the ocean" then that would also include a lot of fish people here keep, including many butterflies and angelfish:


And of course everyone has different views on what fish should be kept or not.
12g JBJ nano-cube dx
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Old 07-16-2004, 12:15 PM   #39
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Well stated Reef Lady!
Marlin: Okay, a mollusk walks up to this sea cucumber, well he doesn't actually walk, he's just there, and he turns to the sea cucumber, and... Well, wait, there's a mollusk and a sea cucumber and...
Chum: You know for a clown fish, he's not that funny.
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Old 07-16-2004, 12:35 PM   #40
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Does anyone think there's any validity in the argument that if we really care, we shouldn't keep any animals in captivity at all?

My wife and I were happy for twenty years. Then we met.
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