Irresponsible???

[saberry]

Another thread is asking whether or not to order from saltwaterfish.com. I started looking at their livestock and noticed that they sell Moorish Idols right over the internet.

Does anyone think it is irresponsible to sell Moorish Idols over the internet as this site does? Click Here . I think to say these are difficult to keep is a major understatement. I would hope that anyone selling these fish would at least make sure the potential buyer is sufficiently educated and has a system capable of maintaining these fish - if that's even realistically possible.

I think that this site (AA) is a great educational tool. Some times we all learn things the hard way - but then we come here to share our experiences so that hopefully they are not repeated by others. I know we have all learned a great deal from what Rev went through with his Idol.

I have noticed that, by far, the most often recommended book for beginners on this site is The Conscientious Marine Aquarist. Do you think it is very conscientious to recommend or use a dealer who sells Moorish Idols - especially in this fashion?

I'll get off the soapbox now. I just think this is worth discussing.

 

[divemasterjim]

dont matter to me ! the choice should be mine not anyone elses, if i want it i get it end of story, so im glad people provide them. Im guessing but probably not correct wouldnt most be tank raised? isnt it easier to grow fish then to hunt them?also this is a stereo type they dont all die lots of people do ok with them. But then again i could be wrong. just my two cents

 

[Atari]

I know where you're coming from saberry, but I guess business is business. Notice how there's no book called The Conscientious Marine LFS..

It's probably unrealistic to expect any business to deliberately lose out on a potential sale. I think the onus has to fall on the aquarist to be educated enough not to make these kinds of purchases. If no one buys then they stop stocking them, simple as that. It's even hard to blame the people that catch them in the first place since they also are just trying to put food on the table.

It's a hot topic, but in my opinion the only way it will get better is with better education. There might be a guy at the bottom of my street selling drugs but I know not to buy them.. you get the idea..

So no, I don't think I would boycott a LFS over this.

 

[saberry]

dont matter to me ! the choice should be mine not anyone elses, if i want it i get it end of story, so im glad people provide them. Im guessing but probably not correct wouldnt most be tank raised? isnt it easier to grow fish then to hunt them?also this is a stereo type they dont all die lots of people do ok with them. But then again i could be wrong. just my two cents

From everything I have read, it is almost certain that they will die in captivity within a few months. Given this, I don't think it is at all likely that they are tank bred.

 

[66deuce]

Well.... they do state that the care level is difficult. And they have a 6 day guarantee on lots of their fish. I have heard the powder blue tangs are very difficult to keep alive and healthy, but tons of shops still sell them.

 

[NightSpirit]

On that site, when you click on the Moorish Idol link, it states:

Care level: Difficult

It's up to the aquarist to decide if they are capable of taking care of a fish or not and to research it appropriately. I'm sure some people are capable of taking care of this fish and are glad that they offer it. A lot of people are extremely dissatisfied with their LFSs and must resort to purchasing fish over the internet (the one closest to me has white yellow tangs).

 

[saberry]

I know where you're coming from saberry, but I guess business is business. Notice how there's no book called The Conscientious Marine LFS..

It's probably unrealistic to expect any business to deliberately lose out on a potential sale. I think the onus has to fall on the aquarist to be educated enough not to make these kinds of purchases. If no one buys then they stop stocking them, simple as that. It's even hard to blame the people that catch them in the first place since they also are just trying to put food on the table.

It's a hot topic, but in my opinion the only way it will get better is with better education. There might be a guy at the bottom of my street selling drugs but I know not to buy them.. you get the idea..

So no, I don't think I would boycott a LFS over this.

Atari, I get your point and I'm not really suggesting a boycott. I guess what got me on this tangent was that the original poster was asking whether or not to buy from that supplier. If, as you would assume, the supplier knows the problems associated with keeping idols, isn't it unethical of them to sell them? If you think it unethical, would you still recommend them?

To use your analogy, it would be like recommending that a child go play at the local park but not telling him to steer clear of the drug dealer on the corner.

 

[saberry]

On that site, when you click on the Moorish Idol link, it states:

Care level: Difficult

It's up to the aquarist to decide if they are capable of taking care of a fish or not and to research it appropriately. I'm sure some people are capable of taking care of this fish and are glad that they offer it. A lot of people are extremely dissatisfied with their LFSs and must resort to purchasing fish over the internet (the one closest to me has white yellow tangs).

Maybe it should read, "Care level: Animal will likely die within a few months."

 

[Atari]

Well I realised after hitting submit that it was a pretty bad analogy, lol

I'm actually not sure if it's unethical.. I'm sure there are other species that were once considered similarly difficult to keep but are now much more common. Perhaps the only way someone will ever discover the secret is if they are freely available to all.

 

[Hara]

There are alot of vendors that sell things that have no business being in an aquarium...wanna discuss anemone and all of us that have them? There are alot of fish that dont ever really have a comfortable home in home aquaria, they are caught, sold and bought. If people didnt buy them, they wouldnt sell them. Plain and simple.

You do not live in a perfect world. It will never be perfect. If we decided to boycott every place that couldnt prove it didnt sell cyanide caught fish, (another environmental issue) none of us would have any. We do what we can where we can.
If you feel that strongly about it, write them a note.

 

[saberry]

There are alot of vendors that sell things that have no business being in an aquarium...wanna discuss anemone and all of us that have them? There are alot of fish that dont ever really have a comfortable home in home aquaria, they are caught, sold and bought. If people didnt buy them, they wouldnt sell them. Plain and simple.

You do not live in a perfect world. It will never be perfect. If we decided to boycott every place that couldnt prove it didnt sell cyanide caught fish, (another environmental issue) none of us would have any. We do what we can where we can.
If you feel that strongly about it, write them a note.

Ease up, I'm not condemning anyone here. In fact, almost all of the information I have gotten about Idols and the difficulty in keeping them alive has come from this site. I have both FW and SW aquariums and would consider myself a hypocrite if I pretended that I am in this hobby for anything other than my own selfish enjoyment. Except for our own amusement, we would all leave the fish in the ocean.

I do think that everyone agrees that keeping Idols is a risky proposition at best so I don't see any harm in having a discussion about why they are sold, how they are sold, and the people who sell them.

The folks over at saltwater.com may in fact be very good business people and overall conscientious in their efforts - from the sound of things, that is probably the case.

Atari, as always, you make a good point. Perhaps one day keeping Idols will be less hazardous to the fish. Still, until that time, I don't think anyone would disagree that perhaps providing potential buyers with a little more information than the word "difficult" is a bad idea.

 

[quarryshark]

I agree with most of the above, but remember. This business like anything else, it is driven by supply and demand. If we continue to educate people (like this thread) then perhaps the demand will someday diminish and the suppliers will stop capturing these animals and leave them where they belong.....in the sea.
Good thread, excellent subject!!

 

[NightSpirit]

Actually I've read that Moorish Idols are only difficult to keep because they are picky eaters and sensitive to water conditions. So if someone has an established tank with good water quality and a good amount of liverock, they likely are not that hard to keep if you find a tank raised one that eats regularly. They have a short lifespan of only a couple years, but it is hard to say what their wild lifespan is.

 

[divemasterjim]

blah blah blah if you dont want one dont buy one that will teach them

 

[saberry]

Thanks QS. Sometimes I come across a little arrogant or preachy in print - which is definitely not my intention. I certainly don't mean to alienate anyone. I was just surprised after everything I have read here at AA about the difficulty of keeping these fish alive, to see them for sale online. 8O We may not be not be animal rights activists, but I'm glad we're not so calloused that we disregard the quality of life for the fish altogether.

 

[BBReef]

From what I understand, a lot of LFS (At least the ones by me) and online vendors don't even pick out the livestock that they receive. They have a supplier that ships them livestock and a list of whats in it and they get what they get. So when a retailer receives a fish that most say should not be kept in aquariums, what should they do, send it back? I think that would be more stressful on the fish then them keeping it and trying to sell it. NOw I now of a few stores around me that do it the old fashion way and get their livestock from wholesalers, and believe me, they know not to sell these fish. The only problem is, like stated previously, the people catching the fish have no clue about which fish don't survive in aquariums, they are just catching anything and everything to put food on the table. So who then do we blame?

And BTW, I've never heard of a tank raised idol, really didnt they would live long enough in captivity or have the proper enviroment to breed. correct me if im wrong on any of this.

However, last time i visited the long beach aquarium, they had a school of 6 or 7 idols in their shark touch tank. Absolutely beautiful when they school!

 

[saberry]

Actually I've read that Moorish Idols are only difficult to keep because they are picky eaters and sensitive to water conditions. So if someone has an established tank with good water quality and a good amount of liverock, they likely are not that hard to keep if you find a tank raised one that eats regularly. They have a short lifespan of only a couple years, but it is hard to say what their wild lifespan is.

If that is the case, it is certainly different than the picture that has been painted recently. From what I understand, they often die in pristine conditions with no warning at all. I would love to hear from anyone who has kept one successfully for any length of time.

 

[saberry]

From what I understand, a lot of LFS (At least the ones by me) and online vendors don't even pick out the livestock that they receive. They have a supplier that ships them livestock and a list of whats in it and they get what they get. So when a retailer receives a fish that most say should not be kept in aquariums, what should they do, send it back?

That would certainly change things.

 

[saberry]

blah blah blah if you dont want one dont buy one that will teach them

Don't feel obligated to post if you're not interested in the topic.

 

[divemasterjim]

Im just guessing on tank raised stuff. Dosent make sense to me that every fish I and all of you have came from some guy with a net out in the ocean.

I just cant stand when someone gets out there soap box

bottom line if you disagree dont buy one if they cant sell them they wont carry them! Im guessing with all the fis stores out there that sell them some people are able to care for them other wise there wouldnt be a demand. Number one rule in business .....supply and demand.

by the way and just for the record I hate animal rights activist those people need to get a clue.