Cardinals with Neon Tetra Disease?

[cherokeeluvr]

8 days ago I purchased 7 cardinal tetras, 3 amanos, and 2 mystery snails. Since, 4 cardinals and 2 amanos have died, my betta also died, and another cardinal is about to die.

Here is how many died on which days after purchasing them.

Day 2: 1 cardinal 2 amano
Day 3: 2 cardinals
Day 4: 1 cardinal, betta
Day 6: 1 cardinal
Day 8: 1 cardinal about to die


The tank is 10 gallons and about 5 weeks old, and all of the parameters test perfectly. The only inhabitant was the betta, who was living in it since the day I set it up, since I had to take apart his old tank to set up the new one. I did frequent water changes, daily doses of stability and prime, and frequent monitoring of tank to ensure he was ok. I’ve had him for around a year and he was perfectly happy and healthy until I purchased the new fish... By day three I could tell he was going to die and was barely moving and he died the next day.

The sick cardinals get pale patches on their bodies and isolate themselves from the others before dying. I’ve been out of the house most of the week and have only been able to check the tank a couple times a day. Due to this, the dead fish get nibbled on or completely eaten by the snails and probably other fish, which I’m sure isn’t helping anything. I pull out the fish when I can if I know they’re going to die.


I’ve heard before that cardinals can’t get neon tetra disease, but this to be exactly like it. Can anybody confirm is this is neon tetra disease or anything else? I’m going to call my LFS today to tell them they’re selling diseased fish, and would like to give them the most accurate diagnosis. I’m really hoping they stop selling the sick fish and refund me my money...


Here is a picture of the sick one today. I pulled him out right after taking this picture to prevent him from dying in the tank.

 

[cherokeeluvr]

Called my LFS and the guy on the phone said they wouldn’t refund the cardinals or shrimp and that their tank of cardinals is healthy. I went into the store anyway and got a different person who gave me a full refund. I showed the picture attached here and a guy behind the counter said he saw some in their tank with that.. Another guy said they’re medicating the entire rack with a ton of tanks including the cardinals. I’m rather displeased with the person on the phone who lied to me, but glad I went in anyway!

While there, they sold me some Malachite Green. I’ve never used it, but it appears to be for ick, which I’m not really confident is what these guys have. It also says in the bottle it is toxic to some tetras and it may permanently stain silicon, so I’m even more hesitant to put it in the tank. Anybody have experience using this?

 

[cherokeeluvr]

Anybody??

 

[Delapool]

On train but either NTD or bacterial infection. If a variety of symptoms - more like bacterial but they are similar.

You would be into furan 2 and metro antibiotics / ant-parasites. But at this stage may be too late.

 

[Delapool]

Quickly found a link as well.

http://www.petproductnews.com/Pet-Product-News-July-2014/Real-Or-False-Neon-Tetra-Disease/

 

[cherokeeluvr]

On train but either NTD or bacterial infection. If a variety of symptoms - more like bacterial but they are similar.

You would be into furan 2 and metro antibiotics / ant-parasites. But at this stage may be too late.

I’ve currently got the 2 cardinals left and both of them currently appear healthy. I’m feeding them an antibiotic food that the store gave me, but no other treatment. Is it worth buying medication and waiting for it to arrive at this point?

Also, do you know if the tank is now contaminated? I’m hesitant with certain treatments since I have a bunch of plants. I hate that this happened so soon after I set the tank up :/

 

[Delapool]

Antibiotic food sounds good - did they say what was in it?

Tank would be yes, unfortunately you would want to wait at least 2 weeks before trying other fish (and sadly more like a month).

 

[cherokeeluvr]

Antibiotic food sounds good - did they say what was in it?

Tank would be yes, unfortunately you would want to wait at least 2 weeks before trying other fish (and sadly more like a month).

They didn’t say exactly what it was, just to feed it to the fish in the tank. They just scooped some flakes out of a big container for me and gave me a good bit of free food.

I’m fine waiting—I want to be on the safe side... If I don’t dose medication, but wait a month, would the tank be safe at that point or would I still need to medicate? I hate to risk any issues with plants or tank stability by adding any chemicals.

 

[Andy Sager]

Not much to add other than a correction. All fish, including cardinals, can get NTD. Cardinals just seem to be more resistant to the pathogen but not totally immune.
It does appear to a bacterial infection and the area of infection does look similar to what NTD starts out looking like. But there are different strains of the pathogen that causes NTD. Sadly, the more common NTD pathogen has no cure to my knowledge and it is passed to other fish when the infected fish are eaten by healthy fish. If these fish are surviving and curing, then they probably don't have NTD but False Neon tetra Disease / Columnaris. You can read about it here: Real Or False Neon Tetra Disease? - Pet Product News - July 2014

Follow the treatment protocol for Columnaris to cure the fish.

Hope this helps

 

[coralbandit]

The picture looks like classic saddleback disease..Columnaris.
Most are using furan2 and kannaplex together sometimes for for two full treatments.
I would euthanise any clearly ill looking fish first before treating...That is the protocol for columnaris I believe.

 

[cherokeeluvr]

Not much to add other than a correction. All fish, including cardinals, can get NTD. Cardinals just seem to be more resistant to the pathogen but not totally immune.
It does appear to a bacterial infection and the area of infection does look similar to what NTD starts out looking like. But there are different strains of the pathogen that causes NTD. Sadly, the more common NTD pathogen has no cure to my knowledge and it is passed to other fish when the infected fish are eaten by healthy fish. If these fish are surviving and curing, then they probably don't have NTD but False Neon tetra Disease / Columnaris. You can read about it here: Real Or False Neon Tetra Disease? - Pet Product News - July 2014

Follow the treatment protocol for Columnaris to cure the fish.

Hope this helps

I forgot about Columnaris. Had that once before.. not so fun. I’ll look into treatments.

Good to know cardinals aren’t resistant to NTD, I’ve always heard both ways and never was completely sure.

 

[cherokeeluvr]

The picture looks like classic saddleback disease..Columnaris.
Most are using furan2 and kannaplex together sometimes for for two full treatments.
I would euthanise any clearly ill looking fish first before treating...That is the protocol for columnaris I believe.

I’ll look into buying one or both of those medications. Thankfully, all current remaining fish appear healthy, so hopefully there will be no need to euthanize unless that changes.

 

[Andy Sager]

I forgot about Columnaris. Had that once before.. not so fun. I’ll look into treatments.

Good to know cardinals aren’t resistant to NTD, I’ve always heard both ways and never was completely sure.

This was discussed on another site I am on and I used a picture of a cardinal tetra I found online, clearly suffering from NTD. The paper went on to say that all fish are capable of succumbing to the bacteria. The main form of transmission of NTD is oral. the eating of dead fish that have the disease will infect a healthy fish.

I’ll look into buying one or both of those medications. Thankfully, all current remaining fish appear healthy, so hopefully there will be no need to euthanize unless that changes.

If you are going to treat Columnaris with these meds, it's the combination of the 2 meds that has a better success rate as they treat both gram + & gram- bacteria and the different strains of columnaris could be either.
Be aware that Nitrofuazone ( the main ingredient of Furan-2) works better at Ph levels lower than 6.8. If your water's Ph is higher than that, it's recommended to substitute Triple Sulfa for Furan-2.

 

[cherokeeluvr]

This was discussed on another site I am on and I used a picture of a cardinal tetra I found online, clearly suffering from NTD. The paper went on to say that all fish are capable of succumbing to the bacteria. The main form of transmission of NTD is oral. the eating of dead fish that have the disease will infect a healthy fish.





If you are going to treat Columnaris with these meds, it's the combination of the 2 meds that has a better success rate as they treat both gram + & gram- bacteria and the different strains of columnaris could be either.

Be aware that Nitrofuazone ( the main ingredient of Furan-2) works better at Ph levels lower than 6.8. If your water's Ph is higher than that, it's recommended to substitute Triple Sulfa for Furan-2.

Thank you for the info and tips!!

 

[cherokeeluvr]

This was discussed on another site I am on and I used a picture of a cardinal tetra I found online, clearly suffering from NTD. The paper went on to say that all fish are capable of succumbing to the bacteria. The main form of transmission of NTD is oral. the eating of dead fish that have the disease will infect a healthy fish.





If you are going to treat Columnaris with these meds, it's the combination of the 2 meds that has a better success rate as they treat both gram + & gram- bacteria and the different strains of columnaris could be either.

Be aware that Nitrofuazone ( the main ingredient of Furan-2) works better at Ph levels lower than 6.8. If your water's Ph is higher than that, it's recommended to substitute Triple Sulfa for Furan-2.

Thank you for the info and tips!!

 

[Delapool]

As an aside, it’s a shame these meds don’t get more published research. Here I’ve found furan2 the most useful BUT that might be as well because it is so rare to use here as not readily available and could be low bacterial resistance to it.

 

[Andy Sager]

As an aside, it’s a shame these meds don’t get more published research. Here I’ve found furan2 the most useful BUT that might be as well because it is so rare to use here as not readily available and could be low bacterial resistance to it.

OR..... your water is the right water for it to work best. Many people use it with great success. ( It's my #1 recommendation....under the right conditions ) When asked for water parameters, the Ph is usually on the low end. Now try it in high PH and very hard water and you probably won't see the same good result.
There is a lot of information online regarding how meds work and what they can and can't be combined with. Some combos don't even have a logical reason why the work....they just do.
But I agree, the manufacturers should put water requirements for best results right on the packaging IMO.

 

[Delapool]

Yeah, it would be useful for sure on labelling - the guys tried it here in an African lake tank but over-dosed so very much it was hard to know. Suggestions on meds from a discus keeper I did wonder if ph would be an issue (perhaps he used medicated feed).

My impression is most people here prefer a meds combo with two different modes (although triple sulpha by itself very useful I find) but hopefully we’ll have a fish vet present again next year.