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Old 03-12-2014, 08:24 AM   #121
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Dangers of Nitrites in Fish | Animals - PawNation

"In aquarium water chemistry, many chemicals interact with each other in complicated ways. While nitrite itself threatens fish directly, it may also be a sign of other problems in the water. Any detectable level of nitrite is too high; if you can detect it, you must address the underlying problem.


In a healthy, established aquarium, various bacteria break down ammonia, nitrite, phosphate and other contaminants. Aquarium antibiotics, sudden changes in water chemistry and broken aquarium equipment can harm these bacteria. So if you see a sudden spike in nitrite in such a tank, there's a good chance something else is amiss, so test your water for ammonia, phosphate and pH. While nitrite can be a problem all by itself, it's also a warning sign that something else has gone wrong.
Dangers to Fish
Nitrite is toxic to aquarium fish, whether of freshwater or marine varieties. It's chemically similar to ammonia and causes similar problems, though it is somewhat milder. Nitrite can burn the gills of aquarium fish. Additionally, despite damage to the gills, fish can still absorb nitrite into their bloodstream, where it can cause internal chemical burns. Fish suffering from nitrite poisoning will typically breath rapidly and swim in darting motions. They may also appear to gasp at the surface of the water."

This is a good brief summary, it should explain why you may feel like we are meandering around the subject of nitrite as opposed to being focused on it, the interaction of nitrite is just one piece of the puzzle and I think to a certain extent the other elements involved (mainly nh3/4, and pH) need to be acknowledged at least briefly as they all have some effect on each of the factors involved and within themselves.

Dabbling with one will effect another. (Aside from gaining the understanding of toxicity damage) I think the other compounds involved should be covered so it is more complete as a subject.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:06 AM   #122
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Not sure if I missed this but does tap water have enough chloride naturally to out-compete nitrite take up?

I think you mentioned J Mcpeak that there would be a lot of variables here with different fish which makes a lot of sense. Also ph and temp variation are good points.

I kind of still wondering if the tank had nitrite of say 2 or 5ppm (since the colours look the same to me) and had a tank of say loaches, catfish, live bearers and tetras that how these fish would survive with no signs of nitrite toxicity.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:43 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
Not sure if I missed this but does tap water have enough chloride naturally to out-compete nitrite take up?

I think you mentioned J Mcpeak that there would be a lot of variables here with different fish which makes a lot of sense. Also ph and temp variation are good points.

I kind of still wondering if the tank had nitrite of say 2 or 5ppm (since the colours look the same to me) and had a tank of say loaches, catfish, live bearers and tetras that how these fish would survive with no signs of nitrite toxicity.

The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.
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Old 03-12-2014, 03:29 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
Not sure if I missed this but does tap water have enough chloride naturally to out-compete nitrite take up?

I think you mentioned J Mcpeak that there would be a lot of variables here with different fish which makes a lot of sense. Also ph and temp variation are good points.

I kind of still wondering if the tank had nitrite of say 2 or 5ppm (since the colours look the same to me) and had a tank of say loaches, catfish, live bearers and tetras that how these fish would survive with no signs of nitrite toxicity.
Tap water is vastly different everywhere in the world. Even per annum there will be some deviation in your own supply. So the quick answer is no. If you have hard water, potentially yes, but, is this water suitable to use with the species concerned? Maybe for a tank of rift lake cichlids but not so sure about anything else. Some species may be ok. Alkalophiles. (That's really a very big question worthy of its own thread, it would be massive as the input would also be huge)

worldwide water parameters! Input. . .
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Old 03-12-2014, 03:42 PM   #125
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The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.
Chloride makes nitrite less toxic, I re quote PDF in post 1. First paragraph. (It's more like the sub heading)
This could be why marine organisms are less prone to nitrite toxicity.
Low pH makes nitrite more toxic.

(I may have mis interpreted what you have said.)

Is that a measure of chloride or nitrite at source? I assume it's chloride, it seems like you are saying "chloride could contribute towards nitrite toxicity?"

Edit, LOW PH HAS A NEGLIGIBLE RESULT ON NITRITE TOXICITY. Low pH makes nitrite more toxic should be dismissed. (See below)
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:40 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
Chloride makes nitrite less toxic, I re quote PDF in post 1. First paragraph. (It's more like the sub heading)
This could be why marine organisms are less prone to nitrite toxicity.
Low pH makes nitrite more toxic.

(I may have mis interpreted what you have said.)

Is that a measure of chloride or nitrite at source? I assume it's chloride, it seems like you are saying "chloride could contribute towards nitrite toxicity?"
We know it makes it less toxic, that has been a key point of a lot of this thread. The discussion of chloride and its positive effects on toxicity. This is why we were discussing sodium chlorida (aka salt)

Can you qualify that low pH makes nitrite more toxic? I read that one place but there were no references or sources.
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:21 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mcpeak View Post
Tap water is vastly different everywhere in the world. Even per annum there will be some deviation in your own supply. So the quick answer is no. If you have hard water, potentially yes, but, is this water suitable to use with the species concerned? Maybe for a tank of rift lake cichlids but not so sure about anything else. Some species may be ok. Alkalophiles. (That's really a very big question worthy of its own thread, it would be massive as the input would also be huge)



worldwide water parameters! Input. . .

Darn, I know kh and gh are soft but not sure on rest. We did have a pool test kit which may check this. Gave it to my brother in law - will have to see if I can get it back.
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:27 PM   #128
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Darn, I know kh and gh are soft but not sure on rest. We did have a pool test kit which may check this. Gave it to my brother in law - will have to see if I can get it back.
You should look up your water quality report, it might be interesting.

I <3 my water here... my TDS (total dissolved solids) out of tap is between 14-18. It's pretty great, like a blank canvas!
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:00 PM   #129
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Quote:
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We know it makes it less toxic, that has been a key point of a lot of this thread. The discussion of chloride and its positive effects on toxicity. This is why we were discussing sodium chlorida (aka salt)

Can you qualify that low pH makes nitrite more toxic? I read that one place but there were no references or sources.
The quote I referenced said chloride only. We have discussed many "aka salts" see post 105. Chloride from the tap, not sodium chloride from the tap.

Did I miss the post where Na-Cl was specified. From that post I see it as Ca Cl2, calcium chloride. (The most likely tap water addition, calcium and chlorine)

The results of the pH nitrite scenario, yes it is more toxic at a lower pH but the results should be disregarded as the natural range pH test had negligible results. Extremes of pH should be disallowed as they are outside of the natural ranges. Perhaps that should be dismissed? I think yes.
http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/61325.pdf

Was the test a chloride test or salinity test?

Originally Posted by Caliban07
The tap chloride concentration is something I have been looking in to. It would seem that my measure of 5.5mg/l isn't enough BUT it could contribute heavily to the toxicity of nitrite amongst other factors. Size, species, etc. if prime has some kind of chloride additive this may explain how it renders nitrite less toxic.

Edit- it could have been a calcium test?
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:09 PM   #130
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Darn, I know kh and gh are soft but not sure on rest. We did have a pool test kit which may check this. Gave it to my brother in law - will have to see if I can get it back.
Gh is your hardness/softness. Kh is your alkalinity (high Kh=high pH) that's overly simple but normally works out that way.


(My tap water TDS fluctuates around 280ppm @ pH 8, far from a blank canvas!)
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