Nitrite toxicity discussion

[threnjen]

I feel like the "protective amount" was not well agreed upon in the various papers, but I am not sure if there is an answer to uncover there.
One thing I liked about that paper about fish farming is that the 100ppm chloride for 1ppm nitrite thing seems to be some sort of "Standard practice" in husbandry in that industry. But in several of the papers and sites there were different amounts of sodium chloride suggested. I guess I need to look over the papers again and try and resolve the discrepancies.
I'm still not sure what nitrite "does" although it just seems to cause a sort of hypoxia. Does this mean the fish are only in trouble if they are breathing heavily?

I feel like there's just not a lot of info OUT there, at least not enough. But there's nothing to be done about that. It feels like we don't have any actual answers though, just more suppositions.

 

[Caliban07]

I feel like the "protective amount" was not well agreed upon in the various papers, but I am not sure if there is an answer to uncover there.
One thing I liked about that paper about fish farming is that the 100ppm chloride for 1ppm nitrite thing seems to be some sort of "Standard practice" in husbandry in that industry. But in several of the papers and sites there were different amounts of sodium chloride suggested. I guess I need to look over the papers again and try and resolve the discrepancies.
I'm still not sure what nitrite "does" although it just seems to cause a sort of hypoxia. Does this mean the fish are only in trouble if they are breathing heavily?

I feel like there's just not a lot of info OUT there, at least not enough. But there's nothing to be done about that. It feels like we don't have any actual answers though, just more suppositions.

From what I understand. Nitrite causes asphyxia and subsequent hypoxia which can damage the internal organs. It does this by changing

 

[Caliban07]

From what I understand. Nitrite causes asphyxia and subsequent hypoxia which can damage the internal organs. It does this by changing

Changing the haemoglobin to methemoglobin and stops the cells from transporting oxygen. The fish are basically suffocating. I'm sure you know this already. Nitrite competes with chloride in the uptake if the cells. Once that sell are a certain percentage methemoglobin depending on species the fish will suffocate.

From what I have learned, the rate if which nitrite accumulates and causes harm is dependent on size and species of the fish. Also on water chloride and level of nitrites. We know that danios and guppys can take high levels of nitrite so I don't know whether or not it would be foolish to assume that the average aquarium species can tolerate higher levels too.

 

[threnjen]

Well I know that guppies are considered "hardy" (I don't find them particularly hardy), but they are recommended as a good beginner fish for this reputation. So I wonder if part of that is because, compared to "Sensitive" species, they have a higher % tolerance for methemoglobin in the blood. Danios are the "unkillable" species during a cycle but guppies are so often sold as starter fish.

 

[Caliban07]

Well I know that guppies are considered "hardy" (I don't find them particularly hardy), but they are recommended as a good beginner fish for this reputation. So I wonder if part of that is because, compared to "Sensitive" species, they have a higher % tolerance for methemoglobin in the blood. Danios are the "unkillable" species during a cycle but guppies are so often sold as starter fish.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[Delapool]

Wow Delapool, now I am really interested what your TDS reads out of the tap! That seems like a lot of chloride!

I was reading that link that JMcpeak posted to Bill Nye talking about TDS in more depth, but I got the impression that it is a pH probe that has a problem when calibrated at vastly different TDS. I don't see how the TDS meter could have inconsistencies because it is specifically calibrated to a special solution.

Sorry =| Unrelated. Should I take this to a new discussion? I am interested in TDS maybe as our next topic

I think it was 500ppm but will need to check. Right after some coffee....

 

[Delapool]

It is 488ppm.

Looking at the suburbs, the chloride ranges from 30 to 210ppm. I don't use prime so I believe at long last I have some sort of explanation on how they survived. The fish also seemed a little slow or off when nitrite was high (ammonia no issues when that was high) so perhaps I was quite lucky as well.

 

[threnjen]

So can you guys check out this thread, I just made a salt recommendation...
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/where-oh-where-could-my-cycle-be-302229.html

This girl has ammonia out of her tap while she tries to fish-in cycle and it seemed like an appropriate place to use the salt method.

I think she could go higher on the nitrites but I don't want to bring down too much forum fury.

Thoughts?

 

[Caliban07]

So can you guys check out this thread, I just made a salt recommendation...
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/where-oh-where-could-my-cycle-be-302229.html

This girl has ammonia out of her tap while she tries to fish-in cycle and it seemed like an appropriate place to use the salt method.

I think she could go higher on the nitrites but I don't want to bring down too much forum fury.

Thoughts?

Yes there was nothing wrong with the recommendation and I'm confident your dosing was correct.

My first port if call would have been to ask her to pull up her full water report to check for chloride as there may have been no need to add more.

 

[threnjen]

oooh good call. Gosh I didn't even think of that. I'm not going to worry about it though because that would only increase the good buffer if she does have some in her tap already. 1tsp/10gal/40liters is such a negligible salt level anyway. But I will remember that next time!!

 

[Caliban07]

oooh good call. Gosh I didn't even think of that. I'm not going to worry about it though because that would only increase the good buffer if she does have some in her tap already. 1tsp/10gal/40liters is such a negligible salt level anyway. But I will remember that next time!!

Yes like I said there's nothing wrong with your recommendation and it's better to be safe. I would also worry about nitrates in her case too. They may be harder to deal with than the average person.

 

[threnjen]

Eh, but her. 25 ammonia from tap will only turn into less than 1 ppm nitrate

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Caliban07]

Eh, but her. 25 ammonia from tap will only turn into less than 1 ppm nitrate

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Oh yeh. Lol

 

[Delapool]

So can you guys check out this thread, I just made a salt recommendation...
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/where-oh-where-could-my-cycle-be-302229.html

This girl has ammonia out of her tap while she tries to fish-in cycle and it seemed like an appropriate place to use the salt method.

I think she could go higher on the nitrites but I don't want to bring down too much forum fury.

Thoughts?

Sounds fine I thought. I've got to go and dig up how much salt is needed before it starts to damage plants (pretty sure it is more and those looked plastic I think). But in most cases I think the fish would come first.

 

[Caliban07]

Sounds fine I thought. I've got to go and dig up how much salt is needed before it starts to damage plants (pretty sure it is more and those looked plastic I think). But in most cases I think the fish would come first.

I think the level of salt required to protect the fish from the nitrite wouldn't be enough to harm the plants.

 

[Delapool]

I think you are right. I thought it was lower but found:

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.html?m=1

Most freshwater plants can tolerate up to 1000 mg. per liter of sodium chloride and since a teaspoon is roughly 5500 mg. that equals one teaspoon per 5.5 liters of water or 1.45 gallons (one gallon = 3.785 liters). This is approximately 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons.
Please keep in mind that this is the upper reach of many plants tolerance, so a lower amount would be better.

 

[threnjen]

Oh yeah we're fine then. I didn't think about the plant part so I'm glad you thought to look that up.

 

[threnjen]

I PMed Rak and invited him to come science with us, don't know if you guys have seen him around. But his posts indicate to me that he might be interested He seems to be a new guy.

 

[Caliban07]

I PMed Rak and invited him to come science with us, don't know if you guys have seen him around. But his posts indicate to me that he might be interested He seems to be a new guy.

Yeh I saw him. Always good to have extra input.

 

[Delapool]

Oh yeah we're fine then. I didn't think about the plant part so I'm glad you thought to look that up.

I think so - might be a bit of suck and see, if the plants start to wilt that might indicate they aren't coping. Below is one I found from Rivercats for information.

1/15th tsp per 10g to counteract 1ppm nitrite is what I remember. At this level it's also safe for plants. Just be sure to use aquarium salt.

Also test your tap water to see if there are nitrites present and if so how much there is in it.