Need help with dosing and algae control

[src]

After my 6 day blackout, I thought I would be able to keep things under control, but I just don't seem to be able to get the hang of EI and dosing. I've now got green hair algae all over the place, and the BBA is coming back strong too.

Stats: 120G planted, about 3 months old, Eco-Complete and PFS substrate (seperated), 3dGH, 3-4dKH depending on how close I am to a water change, pH fluctuates based on dKH and CO2, which is hovering between 20 and 40 ppm. pH from the tap is around 7 - 7.2, at 3 dKH the tank is at 6.4, at 4 dKH it's between 6.6 and 6.8. After my 50% water change, I dose Nitrate to about 30ppm, Phosphate to about 3ppm, and Potassium to a minimum target of 30ppm. I haven't been adding much CSM+B lately, but when I do I use 1/2 teaspoon to dose the tank.

I'm running about 300W of PC lights for about 10 hours each day, with a 2 hour break in the middle of the day. I've eliminated as much sunlight as possible without blacking the room out, and there is no direct sunlight on the tank.

Some days it seems that the Nitrate drops like a rock and I barely catch it before it drops past 10ppm, other times it seems like it won't budge, and the levels shoot through the roof if I regularly dose on schedule.

The plants are pretty varied, with some dense packs of Cabomba and Wisteria covering 1/5 - 1/4 of the tank, some swords, a couple small crypts, sunset hygro, bacopa, some ludwigia, a ton of Vals, and a number of other plants that I don't know the names of yet. It's not all fast growers, but neither is it all slow growth. The green hair algae is growing REALLY well and the BBA is also thriving.

What should I be doing at this point to try to get things under control again? What am I doing wrong?

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Sounds like you could use more nitrates. Probably due to so much Cabomba and Wisteria, which are nitrate sponges. BBA is also a sign of low CO2 as well. Try bumping the nitrates up a little more, and the CO2. Try for 30ppm CO2 minimum. I keep my 75G at 40-50ppm myself. I think once you bump the nitrates up, and then the CO2, you will probably see the algae begin to taper off. It won't be instant, but the first sign may be growth and the spreading of the BBA will hault. Then once you have things inline, you could spot dose the BBA with Hydrogen Peroxide to speed up the elimination of the BBA. But remember, get things inline first so the BBA doesn't come back, then either let it go away on it's own or spot dose with HP.

 

[Peyton]

Along with LWB suggestions you may want to decrease your phosphate dosing to 1-1.5ppm. Also maybe try some flourish excel to slow the algae growth and give your plants a boost.

 

[src]

Thanks, guys. LWB, you said to bump up my Nitrates - what should my target be? I'm aiming for 30 ppm, but like I said sometimes it drops so fast that it hits 10 before I dose again, other times it just keeps going up (past 50).

Peyton, I've been dosing Phospate to keep it in a 10:1 ratio with the Nitrate, as everyone here recommends. I've also been seeing a lot of new information about it (from Tom Barr), and it's pointing to phosphate being less of a control problem that everyone once thought. Like Potassium, as long as you have enough, you shouldn't have to worry about the ratio. Hard to know exactly what is right.

Meanwhile, I'll try to up the CO2. I've turned up the feed, and will be reducing surface agitation. I don't want to add any Excel since I just put in a huge shipment of Vals, and don't want them to melt.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Well, I would try 35ppm for nitrate, and keep phosphate the same, and bump up the CO2 if you can. If using a pressurized system, then it wouldn't take much of a turn on the needle valve to increase it. I think the main concern is the CO2. You could even try just leaving the dosing as it is and turn CO2 up and see how things go, and then adjust nutrients later.

 

[Plantbrain]

The other bit of info that can help in the interm: reduce one of those banks of PC lights off. so 220w.

Run them no more than 10 hour straight, don't mess with the siesta baloney.
Less light will help, namely with less CO2 demand, then less nutrient demand downstream.

When the plants perk up and algae goes away, then bump it back up and add a bit more CO2.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[fish_4_all]

What is your dosing schedule?

 

[m-man]

im having the same problem still except with GW, i keep my ferts perfect but my water still goes to crap in a few days , but with the help of AA, im getting better,
no3 15-20ppm
k 20ppm
po4 1 ppm
csmb .1ppm
ph 6.4
co2 24ppm

 

[src]

I've bumped the CO2 output up, cleaned all the equipment in the tank and one of my cannisters (just for kicks), reduced surface agitation and will be dropping down to 192W of light for a while. I'll keep the "mid-day break" in the lighting for now, if only because it lets me have light in the tank during the hours I am at home and awake. I will also continue to monitor the Nitrate/Phospate situation to try to keep it up to at least 30/3 ppm.

I just scraped the glass clean, so it will be easy to monitor the progress of new algae growth. Just today, it went from a mild fuzz to a carpet on the glass, so I know the baseline growth rate

fish_4_all: My current dosing is based upon trying to maintain 30 ppm Nitrate and 3 ppm Phosphate. I dry-dose Greg Watson ferts for Nitrate and Potassium, using Chuck's Planted Aquarium Calculator. For my tank, that means that 1tsp of Pot. Nitrate is 7.5 ppm Nitrate and 4.7 Potassium. For Phosphate, I made a solution of 250ml of water to 2 tablespoons of KH2PO4, which gives me about 0.2ppm per ml. I usually dose every other day for what has been used, but some days I skip the testing (late for work) and just dose 1tsp of KNO3, 2 of K2SO4 and 3-5 ml of the KH2PO4 solution.

Thanks again for all the advice. Hopefully I can get this under control.

 

[Plantbrain]

Don't reduce surface movement, if anything, increase it.
This is abd idea dn bad avice, it risk the fish's health in order to conserve some CO2 losses, it reduces the O2 as well.

That's a bad idea.

You can always add a bit more CO2 to account for any losses should the plants not produce enough O2 and there's no O2 produced at night, oftenm you see fish gasping at the surface in the morning, not in the middle of day, then someone claims it's the CO2, no, it's the O2 much more, adding high CO2+ low O2 is bad for fish, adding high O2 and high CO2 is fine.

Add surface movement, and then add more CO2 as well.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Also, as I've started another thread on this, but you can also mist CO2 in the tank as well, along with the injection method. If you have a way to do this, you may get better growth as well. And yes, you still should have some surface movement. I have a bit in mine, and it's just better for the fish, and I really haven't had to increase the CO2 that much to compensate for it. Like Tom said, either keep the same movement or increase it, but don't decrease it.

 

[7Enigma]

I've bumped the CO2 output up, cleaned all the equipment in the tank and one of my cannisters (just for kicks), reduced surface agitation and will be dropping down to 192W of light for a while. I'll keep the "mid-day break" in the lighting for now, if only because it lets me have light in the tank during the hours I am at home and awake. I will also continue to monitor the Nitrate/Phospate situation to try to keep it up to at least 30/3 ppm.

How often are you dosing the CSM+B? With the level of light you have, it needs to be consistent along with the other ferts as your food will not supply enough. This could be stunting the growth of the plants allowing for algae to take over.

I, like you, have a 3hour break (from 10:30am until 1:15pm) for a couple of reasons.

1. Like you, it allows the lights to be on when I'm home. Nothing like not getting to enjoy your tank!

2. It allows nutrient levels to stabalize better in tanks with low/poor circulation (I think this might be a possible problem in your tank).

3. It retards algae growth in situations where you potentially bottom out a nutrient between feedings (such as your nitrAte situation).

I think #2 (if your CO2 is in fact as high as you mention) might be your cause for some of the algae. A lot of tanks have areas of low flow due to obstacles (tank ornaments, output flow of the filter, other plants). In these areas you can have localized nutrient deficiency (most notebly CO2 and nitrAte near the surface where you have higher light, but any/all nutrients can bottom out). I was able to kick some of my green fuzz algae that grew out of control on the side opposite my HOB filter simply by addition of a powerhead that I run occassionally. What I found out was that while my nutrient levels were fine, there was an almost still area in the upper right hand side of the tank. This area got full light, but started to bottom out on nutrients during an extended lighting period.

The short siesta allowed even that low flow area to exchange water with more nutrients, but the powerhead really made the difference.

I think this brings up also a very important point and a reason why a lot of people just disregard a lot of nutrient measurements with out kits:

That is, the LOCATION of the measurement is just as important as the proper measuring procedure (following the instructions to a T). I used to take a dixie cup and fill it will tank water and do my measurements until I realized this is the place of highest pH (less CO2 will be present here than farther down the water column), and the nutrient levels might be skewed as well.

I now use (and recommend) a pipet (turkey baster?) that I lower to the center of the tank after running full aeration (unless testing CO2 levels) and draw my samples from there. If battling algae, you might want to compare these results to a testing in the area of the algae. You might be surprised at the differences in nutrient levels IF your agitation is relatively low. This probably also has more relavency in larger tank situations.

I think this will give a more accurate representation of the nutrient levels in the tank.

 

[src]

I didn't eliminate the surface agitation, just lowered it. I have the CO2 reactor on the output of my XP3. It discharges through the spray bar, which is located about 1.5 inches under the surface of the water.

Previously, this had an upwards angle, which I think helped ensure that the CO2 left the water quickly. The spray bar is on the right hand back wall of the tank, and produces a ton of current off the front glass, down to the bottom, and curling back up - this current does a good job of getting behind my one large piece of lace rock. The strange part is that most of the BBA is growing in this current, which should have the highest CO2 concentration in the tank. I have now aimed this flow at a slight down angle. There is still surface motion, but it's not "roiled" anymore.

On the far end side-wall of the tank is the output from an XP2, which is a spraybar directed across the length of the tank. Again, I changed it from a slight up-angle to a slight down-angle, with similar results. The surface is nowhere near "still", and there is a ton of current in the tank. I have to shut off the filters when I feed, or else it all heads straight to the filter intakes.

I hadn't considered the location I pull my test water from. I had been taking it from near the surface in the stream from the XP3. I'll try to pull the water from the center of the tank from now on. Good tip.

I'll also consider finding another way of getting CO2 into the tank. I'm currently using a pressurized system with an in-line reactor.

I haven't been dosing CSM+B often at all, and certainly not regularly. I will start getting that into the routine as well. On the plus side, I don't think growth has been stunted by that - the plants are going nuts. I just need to get the algae to stop joining in the fun!