Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

Do you find 8.2 to be too alkaline, or are you in the "Fish will acclimatize" camp?

Not that I'm passing judgement, obviously you're doing just fine by your fish!

It's a good question that had I not been doing this now, with these fish, I'd have 2 different answers. You see, I have fish that came from different states thereby different water chemistries. For the fish I got up North in VA and NJ, I tried to keep their water at a lower PH as they were being kept up there. ( I tested their water for verification of hardness and PH) Once they were here and growing, I started changing their water to be more alkaline just to make it easier on myself. I was using proper PH 6.5-7.0 and the fish were fine and started breeding in it. I was pulling spawns for fertility verification then due to excessive heat outdoors and again, using the Proper PH treated water, I was having good hatching success. On a couple pairs, I experimented with pure rainwater, which was a very low PH, similar to what they were in when I got them, and had the same results so I assumed that the hatching rates were fish based and not a problem with the water. Now, these other fish came from my buddy down in S. FL where he too was on well water and the water there is a higher PH AND hardness ( take the h2o out of a gallon of water and you could seriously hurt someone if you threw the mineral leftovers at someone lol ) and his fish are doing just fine in my well water. Now all the fish are in my untouched well water and the eggs from all the fish from everywhere are hatching fine. So this is proof ( for a lack of a better word) that they did acclimate to the new water and it's not been a problem. HOWEVER.....
Flash back to 1974, I moved from NJ to S. FL and brought along a trio of breeding angelfish with me. Not realizing the water differences were as bad back then, I acclimated my fish slowly and they survived the move. The problem was they never spawned again. They went from prolific spawners to nothing. I can only assume they didn't adjust the the new water well enough to breed again. I kept them another 2+ years with no spawns then sold them off.
I can only assume that today's fish are just more used to the different waters whereas my fish 40 years ago, were too close to their wild "cousins" and didn't like the change. Back in the 1980s, I had another hatchery and all the angels were in straight dechlorinated tap water and I produced fry with no problems. I can only assume it was because all my breeders were born in the same S. Florida water I was using. Who knows??

Hope this explains it.

 

[Tacit Blues]

That's really interesting, thanks!

_________
Yelling into the tin can from the far end of the string

 

[Andy Sager]

Well the update on that huge spawn is......................... they all died. Not one egg hatched. Was it too soon for him? Was it because the water needed changing as they spawned on change day? We'll never know for sure But, since they both participated in this disaster, maybe, just maybe, she won't beat down on him too bad the next time when I pull their spawn. If she does, He's finding a new mate. I need him to breed with the Zebra lace anyway.

2 levels of the grow out rack are almost complete. Hopefully some fish will be on that rack by week's end.

 

[Andy Sager]

Did the drainage plumbing today for 2 levels of the grow out rack and started water testing some of the tanks for them. I'll finish up the air for them tomorrow and then hook the whole thing up to the compressor. It's still looking like I will have fish on that rack by Sunday. I take pics and post them once all the tanks are on the rack.

I had a sense of relief today as the spawn from my old Koi/ Gold Marble pair ( the one with the dud last spawn) was due to free swim today. When I turned on the lights this morning, I was happy to see a nice cloud of fry swimming so I can only assume the last spawn was just from his time in the outdoor heat. Guess he'll be staying in the breeder's rack. He's earned it.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well a pattern seems to be emerging for the Black/ Silver pair. Today, one day after a water change, they spawned again. (Another biggie spawn too! ) That means 8 days after their last spawn, which they ate. So the virility test is on. lol I pulled the spawn tonight just before lights out so the eggs are safe, the pair should go to sleep and I will see if he can handle spawning every 7 to 8 days. I would really like to put him in with the Zebra Lace female but these spawns are so large, I get greedy. PLUS, their first spawn isn;t old enough yet to really see what they are going to turn in to so I may have some nice Blacks in there or just Black Lace ( which I'm not complaining about) but I definitely need him to go with that ZL female at least once more so I can try to get some veil blood into that line.
As for the grow out rack, I didn;t get it done. Had to take a personal day today to be with the GF so it's tomorrow's work for the rack.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, the fertility test for the black male is a big success. I'd say out of that whole spawn, there were about 8-10 white eggs and the rest all hatched today. They are sticking to the slate this time so it looks like the slate is moving from all those little tails wiggling. lol The next big question will be whether they are hearty and not just hatched.

I have 6 tanks up on the grow out rack all filled with water and most of the airline done. Was going to add the section to the compressor when PR #2 ( the ones who can read lol ) decided they read enough so they spawned. LOL I had put the big slate back over the label and had another slate in the tank just in case but of course, they chose the big one. Oh well.

I'm still not having any luck with the 1/2 blacks. I split the pair up so that the male is in with the female Zebra Lace. He knocked her around a little when I first introduced her to the tank but now she has him hiding in some plants and beats on him whenever he comes out. ( That's a shocker.) Then I put the female in with the lone male 1/2 black and just like the other male, he is beating on her. I don;t get it. These 1/2 blacks are the only ones acting this way. So now my thought is to put the 1/2 black female in with the black male as he seems to be the gentler of the pair and put the silver female in with the lone 1/2 black male and leave the 1/2 black- Zebra Lace pair as is until she spawns and I can see if he is part of the process. If he is, I will see how that turns out before deciding who stays with whom.

So that's the latest...

 

[Andy Sager]

This is one of the saddest experiences a fish breeder can experience: Looking at all those eggs and having the knowledge that the male did nothing about fertilizing them. That experiment is over!

 

[Autumnsky]

This is one of the saddest experiences a fish breeder can experience: Looking at all those eggs and having the knowledge that the male did nothing about fertilizing them. That experiment is over!

That is a really nice bunch of eggs, oh so sad.

 

[Andy Sager]

Sadly, I watched her lay about 75% of the eggs and know that when the male came near, she pushed him away. I was hoping that maybe he got some done but I pulled the whole white spawn today so nope!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Well it's been a few days so here's an update:
I got fish everywhere. The fertility test on the black male came out great. What a trooper for every 7 days. I split up that pair and put the Black male with the 1/2 black female and the Single 1/2 black male with the Silver female and left the 1/2 black male with the Zebra Lace female. So far, the only good thing is that the Zebra female has stopped kicking the male's butt, the Black male is being nice( ish) the his new female ( don't know why they haven't spawned yet ) and I had to separate the Silver and 1/2 Black because he was just beating on her too much and I don;t want to lose her. So except for the 1/2 blacks, all the adults I have have spawned.
The grow out rack is far from complete and the 6 tanks I did get going are just not enough. I have had to split some of the spawns in the 10s because there are too many fry for growth. They should be in the larger tanks by now but... oh well. Hopefully, I will get the rest of the rack going soon.
That's it for now. Pics soon.

 

[fish wrangler]

Updating the score card now. Sounds like you are doing great though!

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[Andy Sager]

Updating the score card now. Sounds like you are doing great though!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

I seem to have gone from not enough males to not enough females back to not enough males. I'm trying to make matches that work based on the temperment of the fish. Not an easy task. Seems like every male I have mixed with that female 1/2 black beats on her. I figured the black male had his butt whooped by the silver female so he would be less aggressive towards the 1/2 black female. It's worked, mostly, but I still see him peck at her. Who would have thought that the Silver female, who beat up on the Black male, would allow herself to take such beatings from the new male? I'm waiting, if they don;t do it themselves, for my big tank to get set up and I'll throw them all in together and let them choose mates. This is NOT my normal practice however. I just want some 1/2 black blood in there SOMEWHERE!!! lol

 

[Andy Sager]

And just like that, my wish may have come true.
Yesterday was water change day but I am leaving on a short 6 day trip in a few days so I didn;t have slates in most of the breeder's tanks. That apparently didn't matter. lol Blushings hit the wall, literally and spawned on the glass that looks to be in front of the part of the background that has driftwood in the pic. Oh well. Pair #2 , the ones that can read , decided that even tho the big slate wasn't in the tank in front of the wording, they spawned on the smaller slate that was still in the tank from the last time. It's a HUGE spawn too but there is nothing I can do with it. Oh Oh well. I did, however, put a bigger piece of slate in the Zebra Lace's tank because I wanted somewhere else for the male to hide in case the female got fiesty. I did see the beginning of the female's ovipositor yesterday but figured so what if she spawns , he's not allowed near the slate anyway. But today, a few minutes after she started laying her eggs and forcing the male away from the slate, he finally stepped up. I watched the 2 of them squabble and this time the male was fighting back. Then, much to the female's dismay, he went to the slate and started fertilizing her eggs. ( Last time he just tried to eat them.) I hid and watched from a distance and saw her pushing him and nudging him WHILE he was fertilizing. What a scene. He was going to no matter what she was did. So , when I left them a few minutes ago, they were both partaking in the spawn. Now, I don;t know if I should pull the thing for a fertility check or leave it so she doesn't beat the crap out of him while I am away. MANNNN, I hate going away when all this fun is happening.

 

[Andy Sager]

I AM the fish whisperer!

 

[Andy Sager]

AMAZING UPDATE!!!!!
In the bazzarro world of fish breeding, a.k.a. Who'd a thunk it! aka How'd that happen???, strange things happen. I went for the evening feeding and checked up on the 3 spawns from today. Sadly, at least this time it's sadly, they are all doing fine. Too bad nothing will come from them. HOWEVER, now the 1/2 black male is guarding the spawn. I don;t mean watching or hanging out by or staying close to... he is GUARDING the eggs. The female is being chased away whenever she tries to get close to fan the eggs. I didn't really see him fanning the eggs or mouthing them but he is protecting them like his life depends on them. I'm just over this development. I'm actually feeling better about pulling their next spawn. But for this one, I just so happen to have a 4" airstone running in the tank already so I decided to push it closer to the eggs so that IF the male isn;t fanning, there will still be water movement over them and hopefully, if nothing else, I can use this as a fertility check. Who'd a thunk that yesterday, he was the goat and today, he is the hero!

 

[fish wrangler]

Zero to hero!!!

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[Andy Sager]

Fish do tell you what the problem is, you just need to learn how to understand their language. So the middle dwelling fish are hanging close to the bottom... that's a sign. They do come to the surface but in the heavily planted parts of the tank... That's another sign. The fish come from dimly lit areas in nature or dimly lit fish rooms or planted ponds when domestically raised...that's a clue. Tetra eggs are photosensitive ( meaning they do not like light and die in it) there's another clue..... Ok, no whispering here, dim the lights and see how they do. If no change, add more taller plants in the middle of the tank width and see how they react to that. The next step would be to remove the black tetras and see if the neons change behavior. If not, it's the tank, not the fish, that is the problem. The fish are telling you they don;t like something in their tank and it's causing them to behave differently than "normal."

As for the baby Angels, thanks, they are doing great. I currently have 4 tanks in the grow out rack full of babies ( + 2 tanks of my old F1s), 8 or 9 -10 gal tanks with fry under 30 days old and 3 spawns now with their parents. I will be posting pics soon ( as soon as I take them. lol) The winning pairs for rapidity are the Blushings and the new Gold Marble/ Koi pair. The winner, so far, for quantity per spawn now goes to my old pair of Koi/ Gold Marble followed by whatever seems to spawn with the Black male. He makes a lot of babies.

 

[Andy Sager]

So sadly/gratefully non of the 3 spawns survived. Considering the fry would be lost anyway, I am not upset at this result although I would have liked to see a 1/2 black- Zebra wiggler. But next time, I will definitely be pulling the spawn to know for sure if it's a good match.
That's it for now beside my freezer finally showing up. Now i just need the electrician to get back over here. lol

 

[fish wrangler]

Did the parents eat the eggs or just not fertile?

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[Andy Sager]

Did the parents eat the eggs or just not fertile?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

The 1/2 black-Zebra spawn had many dead eggs which was not a surprise considering all the hassles they were giving each other but the other 2 spawns, both from pairs with tremendous results when I hatch out the eggs, ate them while they were still alive. This was not a surprise for one pair as that's happened before but this was the first time I let pair #2 keep their spawn and most likely the last time I do that