Advise on Fishless Cycling

[TyaxElite]

Good Afternoon/Evening

First of all would like to say hello and thank you very much for the very useful information/posts/stickies available

Im about three weeks into my first fish less cycle (I'm new to the hobby by the way!) I bought a book initially 'Setting Up a Tropical Aquarium Week by Week' Which has been a brilliant resource and then read various articles online, So far the cycle has been going well, Slow but well! My ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have spiked/peaked.
Currently readings of ammonia are 0
Nitrite 3.3 (this is the highest the Nutrafin test shows, Have checked with my API kit and shows as 5.0 also its highest)
Nitrate shows as 110

I know the Nutrafin is not great, I always check results against the API if i doubt any of reading (came free with my tank)

My question is, Should I continue dosing ammonia to 2-3ppm in order for the nitrites to drop? Ammonia is processed currently within 6-12 hours. I have been dosing ammonia (using Jeyes Kleen Off Ammonia by the way) up to 2ppm after dosing at 5ppm for three times (nitrite spiked and I lowered dosage)

Hope this makes sense, And thanks in advance for any help

Lee

 

[TyaxElite]

Please note since doing this I have done a 90% water change, I'm going to redo the parameters and will post once done

 

[TyaxElite]

Please note since doing this I have done a 90% water change, I'm going to redo the parameters and will post once done

Still reading off the chart, Done another almost 100% (couldn't get all as its an internal filter and hard to get to bottom without removing all media!

Will check parameters after 30mins or so

 

[Bettafanatic]

Hi and welcome to the site!

I absolutely hate cycling, but we all need to do it. Too bas

If you do a big water change like that, you will kill a lot of your bacteria. If you want to reduce nitrite levels, only do a 25-50% change and see where it lands. If it's still off the charts, do another partial change. Doing a big one will slow your cycling process a lot.

Yes, keep dosing ammonia to feed the nitrates. If you stop dosing, they will get lazy and drop. Eventually the nitrites will convert into nitrates and you'll be done. When both nitrites and ammo read 0, redose and check again in 24 hours. If they're both 0 again by then, your cycle is complete! It seems like your almost done, so hang in there.

 

[jlk]

Doing a big water change while fish-in or fishless cycling will not 'kill off' bacteria or harm a cycle as long as the water is temperature matched & properly conditioned. It sounds like your doing well with cycle and you have the first half of the process well accomplished! You want to continue to dose ammonia to keep your first set of bacteria fed & happy. Then, you will just need a bit of patience while waiting for your nitrites to zero out. Make sure you are keeping an eye on your ph as well for any changes. Please dont hesitate to ask questions!

 

[Bettafanatic]

Doing a big water change while fish-in or fishless cycling will not 'kill off' bacteria or harm a cycle as long as the water is temperature matched & properly conditioned. It sounds like your doing well with cycle and you have the first half of the process well accomplished! You want to continue to dose ammonia to keep your first set of bacteria fed & happy. Then, you will just need a bit of patience while waiting for your nitrites to zero out. Make sure you are keeping an eye on your ph as well for any changes. Please dont hesitate to ask questions!

Oh I got mixed up water changes like that kill ammonia off. Or maybe I just got this all mixed up. Sorry, just ignore me.

 

[TyaxElite]

Thanks for both your answers.
I must admit I haven't been keen on getting PH values but I will from now on (been doing them weekly currently?)
Readings this morning Ammonia 0.50 and Nitrites off the chart (max reading 3.3ppm) Nitrites 110
So has risen rapidly overnight, Guess its a case of being more patient!
Thanks again

 

[Bettafanatic]

Patience is key here. I'm sure with just a little more waiting, your tank will be cycled. What fish do you plan to stock?

 

[TyaxElite]

Patience isn't my strong point but I won't cheat/rush as this will only hurt the fish, So making sure its done properly.

Im thinking so far:-

Definitely:-
2 x Corys @ 6.5cm x 2 = 13cm
6 x Harlequins @ 4cm = 24cm
1 x Bristlenose @ 12.5cm = 12.5cm
2 x German Blue Rams @ 5cm = 10cm
Total = 59.5cm

Still not sure:-
6 x Danios @ 6cm = 36cm
Endlers Guppy @ Male 2.5cm Female 4.5cm
Red Snakeskin Guppy @ 4cm
Neons
Shrimp

Reason Im not sure if the sizes, The fish I have decided on in length equal 59.5cm (although this is including fins) and I have been working on the rule 1cm of fish to 1L (excluding fins) is this a good rule to use?
I don't want to overstock (and I am new to all this so please pull me up if I am wrong on anything) the tank for the sake of wanting as many fish as possible, I would ideally like to add another group of shoaling fish but feel this will overstock the tank.

I also fancy adding shrimp but unsure what to go for? (or should I not?) and change these for the bristle nose?

 

[librarygirl]

Patience isn't my strong point but I won't cheat/rush as this will only hurt the fish, So making sure its done properly.

Im thinking so far:-

Definitely:-
2 x Corys @ 6.5cm x 2 = 13cm
6 x Harlequins @ 4cm = 24cm
1 x Bristlenose @ 12.5cm = 12.5cm
2 x German Blue Rams @ 5cm = 10cm
Total = 59.5cm

Still not sure:-
6 x Danios @ 6cm = 36cm
Endlers Guppy @ Male 2.5cm Female 4.5cm
Red Snakeskin Guppy @ 4cm
Neons
Shrimp

Reason Im not sure if the sizes, The fish I have decided on in length equal 59.5cm (although this is including fins) and I have been working on the rule 1cm of fish to 1L (excluding fins) is this a good rule to use?
I don't want to overstock (and I am new to all this so please pull me up if I am wrong on anything) the tank for the sake of wanting as many fish as possible, I would ideally like to add another group of shoaling fish but feel this will overstock the tank.

I also fancy adding shrimp but unsure what to go for? (or should I not?) and change these for the bristle nose?

What size tank and what filter(s) do you have? That will dictate stocking. Oh and the 1 inch per gallon rule is outmoded and doesn't take into account things like the activity levels, bioload, etc of each individual species, so no not a good rule to follow.

As for cycling, you seem like you're doing well actually and right on schedule. How long ago did nitrite start showing up? The nitrite phase is the longest and can last 3 weeks on average so it may be a bit more time before they 0 out, so I wouldn't worry yet. Just keep an eye on PH to ensure that it doesn't start falling. Water changes will not interrupt the cycle as long as you dechlorinate the water but usually for fishless cycles they aren't needed unless PH starts dropping or ammonia was overdosed or things seem like they are stalling (e.g. ammonia has stopped dropping or not dropping as quickly).

 

[TyaxElite]

The tank is a 80L although with displacement by substrate, rocks and plants is around 72L. Dimensions in cm = 45.5 (W) x 49 (L) x 49.5 (H)
Its an Orca/Boyu MT50 has a three stage bio-mechanical internal filtering which is separated into three sections: Initial stage two large sponges, Centre compartment ceramic media then carbon and then in-between the second and third filter are the Bio-Balls and then finally to the third compartment which is the water pump and my heater, Hope this helps?
Its in total just gone four weeks, But I did have problems initially as I did overload on Ammonia so after a week I did a 100% water change and started again so 3 weeks 1 day really.
I have started logging PH every two days now so I have this as reference to see any changes.

I would also appreciate anyones opinion on THIS ARTICLE in regards to why water changes during cycling are a good idea?

Thanks again

 

[My Fish Babies.]

Just my 2 cents.......I am in a similar situation. I am going on one month into my 55 gallon cycle. My Nitrites and Nitrates have been testing off the charts for over a week or so now. Follow the advice you are given here. I did a 100% water change this morning and I am still getting high readings as well. I am pretty patient so I am not too worried at the moment. As mentioned watch your ph level as well. I was actually sort of relieved to read your post. Was thinking I had some sort of "FREAK" cycle going on LOL. I guess its normal and just something some tanks have to go through. I am SO glad this is all fish less. I couldn't imagine the stress on my Fancies if they were actually in the tank. Good luck to you!

 

[jlk]

Interesting article but not highly scientific as it does not take into account ph or kh values and its also based on a small amount of ammonia. For fish-in cycling, water changes are a MUST. No ifs, ands or buts about it- this I agree with completely. Tanks still cycle with wcs & the fish stay healthy because they are not exposed to high levels of toxins. For fishless cycles, I dont think water changes are a must do (esp daily) unless the situation warrants them. Od'ing on ammonia, Ph changes or nitrites that have been high for an extended frame of time are examples that necessitate water changes. This article also states they are fishless cycling at a very low dose of ammonia (1ppm). This also factors into the cycling process- a larger amount of bacteria need to grow to handle the larger amounts of ammonia that are generally recommended on this site. This process will take longer. Obviously, if you want to do daily wcs during a fishless cycle, there is nothing wrong with doing this as long as you dont mind the extra work.

 

[TyaxElite]

Just my 2 cents.......I am in a similar situation. I am going on one month into my 55 gallon cycle. My Nitrites and Nitrates have been testing off the charts for over a week or so now. Follow the advice you are given here. I did a 100% water change this morning and I am still getting high readings as well. I am pretty patient so I am not too worried at the moment. As mentioned watch your ph level as well. I was actually sort of relieved to read your post. Was thinking I had some sort of "FREAK" cycle going on LOL. I guess its normal and just something some tanks have to go through. I am SO glad this is all fish less. I couldn't imagine the stress on my Fancies if they were actually in the tank. Good luck to you!

Im with you being my first time, I wanted to make sure things are done correctly. I also think exposing the fish to high levels of ammonia, nitrite etc is very humane and can only shorten their lives and damage them physcially.
PH was 6.5 I am aiming for a PH around 7 but i guess using these ph adjusters are not a good idea during cycling?

 

[TyaxElite]

Interesting article but not highly scientific as it does not take into account ph or kh values and its also based on a small amount of ammonia. For fish-in cycling, water changes are a MUST. No ifs, ands or buts about it- this I agree with completely. Tanks still cycle with wcs & the fish stay healthy because they are not exposed to high levels of toxins. For fishless cycles, I dont think water changes are a must do (esp daily) unless the situation warrants them. Od'ing on ammonia, Ph changes or nitrites that have been high for an extended frame of time are examples that necessitate water changes. This article also states they are fishless cycling at a very low dose of ammonia (1ppm). This also factors into the cycling process- a larger amount of bacteria need to grow to handle the larger amounts of ammonia that are generally recommended on this site. This process will take longer. Obviously, if you want to do daily wcs during a fishless cycle, there is nothing wrong with doing this as long as you dont mind the extra work.

Glad to read your feedback, I did wonder why the only dosed on ammonia to such low levels as during stocking the tank the bacteria would need to build up bacteria to catch up with the amount needed to be processed.
I havent been doing water changes but was interested to hear what people think

 

[jlk]

PH was 6.5 I am aiming for a PH around 7 but i guess using these ph adjusters are not a good idea during cycling?[/QUOTE]

Is this the ph of your tank (6.5)? Have you done a test on your tap water as well? Leave out a container/cup of tap overnight, preferably with an airstone/bubbler. If you dont have an extra, just give it a good stir every so often. This will give you your actual taps ph after it has gassed out. We need to know this to see if your tank is crashing/already crashed to be able to further help. The ph adjusters are only a temporary solution & will set you up for further problems- just skip them.

 

[TyaxElite]

PH was 6.5 I am aiming for a PH around 7 but i guess using these ph adjusters are not a good idea during cycling?

Is this the ph of your tank (6.5)? Have you done a test on your tap water as well? Leave out a container/cup of tap overnight, preferably with an airstone/bubbler. If you dont have an extra, just give it a good stir every so often. This will give you your actual taps ph after it has gassed out. We need to know this to see if your tank is crashing/already crashed to be able to further help. The ph adjusters are only a temporary solution & will set you up for further problems- just skip them. [/QUOTE]

Thank you for your response, Yes the PH of the tank is 6.5 I will test again tonight and let you know the PH and also do the test on the tap water.

Thanks again

 

[TyaxElite]

Is this the ph of your tank (6.5)? Have you done a test on your tap water as well? Leave out a container/cup of tap overnight, preferably with an airstone/bubbler. If you dont have an extra, just give it a good stir every so often. This will give you your actual taps ph after it has gassed out. We need to know this to see if your tank is crashing/already crashed to be able to further help. The ph adjusters are only a temporary solution & will set you up for further problems- just skip them.

Thank you for your response, Yes the PH of the tank is 6.5 I will test again tonight and let you know the PH and also do the test on the tap water.

Thanks again[/QUOTE]

Tested again using Nurtafin test and still at 6.5, Then tested the nitrite (use test strips to check if its high to save my test kits) Then noticed how different the PH was on the test strips, So i then used my API test kit to test the PH and the results are hard to tell.. (see pics)

 

[jlk]

Are these ph results from your tank or your tap? It looks like its @7.4 to 7.6 range. Probably closer to 7.4 though. Were you getting 6.5 readings from the strips for your tank?

 

[TyaxElite]

Are these ph results from your tank or your tap? It looks like its @7.4 to 7.6 range. Probably closer to 7.4 though. Were you getting 6.5 readings from the strips for your tank?

Hello was getting 6.5 using another test kit (Nutrafin) I bought this initially with the tank bit have heard the API test kit is better? The test above are done using the API