Ongoing Experiment: Cichlids at 89 degrees

[opdday2]

Well as I said, this is a bit of an experiment and I must say I am liking the results. First off my tank includes: Two Red Jewels (Paired), Two Peacocks (New, but seem Paired), Two Convicts (Paired), Two Jack Dempseys (Seem Paired), A Green Terror, A Wolf "dovii", A Neon Blue Jewel, Two Leopard Cats, A Common Pleco, Some Turtles (Map and two sliders), A Red Belly Frog... My original intent was to prevent ick at all cost, seeing as I house returned full growns for my local store that I breed for a it occur three months ago that I got Ick, to keep any fish from being lost I cranked up my heater and seeing as my tank has many Oxygen stones I didn't see oxygenation as a problem. Almost instantly the ick was gone, but also I noticed my fish were seemingly more active and their colors were definitely more vibrant. I decided to ongo this new temp and I am loving the results. First off my fish breed more and faster than ever. They eat more and digestion seems to occurs faster, plus they have gotten real fat. Their aggression has actually gone much down, and they are now always hanging out in the front of the tank. My Jack Dempseys actually mate right next to the convicts and they don't seem to mind eachother...this is definitely something that came with the higher temp. I've actually even had the convicts raise their fry all the way up a few times even as they were laying new eggs which was very strange to me as that had never happened in my previous temp of 80 degrees. I think they are overall healthiest they have ever been and they seem real happy. I will add pics and videos asap, probably in the next few days... Please no one get on here telling me that the temp is too high, I know that they are supposed to be between 78 and 83, but as I said this has been and will remain an experiment until I have more conclusive results.

the tank is 90 gallons upon the correct age they will join my 2 foot catfish in a 250 gallon.

 

[tbrazil230]

Hoe long has this experiment been going on?

 

[opdday2]

Hoe long has this experiment been going on?

I think it's been three months, if not longer possibly up to five

Edit: I just figured out a definite answer to timeline of this... It has been since October 5 last year (2012)

 

[nghsquad05]

I'm interested in how this turns out I have alot of the type of chiclids so if it works for you I might want to try it

 

[opdday2]

I'm interested in how this turns out I have alot of the type of chiclids so if it works for you I might want to try it

I definitely plan on keeping this updated, so I'll let you know, one thing that I noticed right off the bat is my fish swim in higher waters than before where as prior they mostly hung out at the bottom except when feeding... Also seems that the are more curious in what's outside the tank, as in they come to the front more often. I was going to turn it down today after spending sometime on the chat and getting negative feedback, but I figured wth, worst case scenario I have to restock, and honestly I think I'd see signs of stress by now

 

[opdday2]

Also my pleco is so much more active than I've ever seen a pleco and that too me is worth it alone

 

[opdday2]

I definitely plan on keeping this updated, so I'll let you know, one thing that I noticed right off the bat is my fish swim in higher waters than before where as prior they mostly hung out at the bottom except when feeding... Also seems that the are more curious in what's outside the tank, as in they come to the front more often. I was going to turn it down today after spending sometime on the chat and getting negative feedback, but I figured wth, worst case scenario I have to restock, and honestly I think I'd see signs of stress by now

wanted to clarify that they don't hang at the top like they are suffocating, they definitely have enough air and are just exploring the higher waters more

 

[chew valley]

Well as I said, this is a bit of an experiment and I must say I am liking the results. First off my tank includes: Two Red Jewels (Paired), Two Peacocks (New, but seem Paired), Two Convicts (Paired), Two Jack Dempseys (Seem Paired), A Green Terror, A Wolf "dovii", A Neon Blue Jewel, Two Leopard Cats, A Common Pleco, Some Turtles (Map and two sliders), A Red Belly Frog... My original intent was to prevent ick at all cost, seeing as I house returned full growns for my local store that I breed for a it occur three months ago that I got Ick, to keep any fish from being lost I cranked up my heater and seeing as my tank has many Oxygen stones I didn't see oxygenation as a problem. Almost instantly the ick was gone, but also I noticed my fish were seemingly more active and their colors were definitely more vibrant. I decided to ongo this new temp and I am loving the results. First off my fish breed more and faster than ever. They eat more and digestion seems to occurs faster, plus they have gotten real fat. Their aggression has actually gone much down, and they are now always hanging out in the front of the tank. My Jack Dempseys actually mate right next to the convicts and they don't seem to mind eachother...this is definitely something that came with the higher temp. I've actually even had the convicts raise their fry all the way up a few times even as they were laying new eggs which was very strange to me as that had never happened in my previous temp of 80 degrees. I think they are overall healthiest they have ever been and they seem real happy. I will add pics and videos asap, probably in the next few days... Please no one get on here telling me that the temp is too high, I know that they are supposed to be between 78 and 83, but as I said this has been and will remain an experiment until I have more conclusive results.

Do you not have any aggression problems at this temperature? I know with JD's they say that to cut out aggression you should lower the temperature. So I would have thought that you would have problems. Very interesting this.

 

[jetajockey]

Increased activity is to be expected with higher temperatures in cold blooded animals. The increase in metabolism also means higher susceptibility to bacterial issues and shorter lifespan, although how much impact on each species is anyone's guess. Temperature suggestions are usually an average temp that a particular species is found in naturally, and with a lot of species this can be a wide variation. But overall I believe the idea is to keep them all in a happy medium rather than an extreme either high or low.


I'm going to venture and say that the lessened aggression is unrelated to the temperature increase.

 

[Rlavassor86]

Increased activity is to be expected with higher temperatures in cold blooded animals. The increase in metabolism also means higher susceptibility to bacterial issues and shorter lifespan, although how much impact on each species is anyone's guess. Temperature suggestions are usually an average temp that a particular species is found in naturally, and with a lot of species this can be a wide variation. But overall I believe the idea is to keep them all in a happy medium rather than an extreme either high or low.

I'm going to venture and say that the lessened aggression is unrelated to the temperature increase.

+1 on all of this.

 

[opdday2]

Do you not have any aggression problems at this temperature? I know with JD's they say that to cut out aggression you should lower the temperature. So I would have thought that you would have problems. Very interesting this.

I expected aggression to heighten, as their aggression levels were high to begin with I mean this is a crowded tank... But nope, almost instantly they were less aggressive, they don't even really fight over food anymore, though I do feed them more as they seem to process it better.

 

[opdday2]

Increased activity is to be expected with higher temperatures in cold blooded animals. The increase in metabolism also means higher susceptibility to bacterial issues and shorter lifespan, although how much impact on each species is anyone's guess. Temperature suggestions are usually an average temp that a particular species is found in naturally, and with a lot of species this can be a wide variation. But overall I believe the idea is to keep them all in a happy medium rather than an extreme either high or low.


I'm going to venture and say that the lessened aggression is unrelated to the temperature increase.

I do have to disagree with you on the bacteria infection stance of your comment as almost all forms for waterborne bacteria can not survive at such temps, in fact most cant survive 83 degree. As for aggression, I can't be sure, but the heater went out about a week ago and it drop to 78 and I was checking in during the drop and aggression was definitely escalating by the hour. Also seeing as no one has apparently attempted this and furnished their result, I really wonder how you can know it will shorten lifespans, I certainly have searched left and right on the web and have found no info, though you may be right I'd say your right on it really is any bodies guess here and now, but that is what research is for.

 

[HUKIT]

I do have to disagree with you on the bacteria infection stance of your comment as almost all forms for waterborne bacteria can not survive at such temps, in fact most cant survive 83 degree.

He's right as there are many bacterial infections such as Columnaris that thrive at higher temp and can be triggered by fluctuating or sustained high temperatures can often allow for a Columnaris infection to take hold in an otherwise healthy aquarium especially if other stressors are present such as injury, stress, age, etc. Columnaris thrives in temperatures above 80 F (I have observed 85-90 to be a range where Columnaris is most virulent).

Maybe in some seasons the temps may climb higher but to sustain that temperature for a long period of time can certainly cause health problems. For one water quality will certainly be effected by increasing food to feed the higher metabolism caused by the higher temps. New world cichlids are prone to Head and Lateral Line Errosion which is caused by deteriorating water quality.

There are reasons why you'll find little to no information on this and personally I think it's a terrible idea and most experienced aquarist will agree.

You still have not provided details as far as tank size, actual sizes of fish, and pictures so until then I'm skeptical a Parachromis dovii of any size is behaving simply because you raised the temp.

 

[opdday2]

He's right as there are many bacterial infections such as Columnaris that thrive at higher temp and can be triggered by fluctuating or sustained high temperatures can often allow for a Columnaris infection to take hold in an otherwise healthy aquarium especially if other stressors are present such as injury, stress, age, etc. Columnaris thrives in temperatures above 80 F (I have observed 85-90 to be a range where Columnaris is most virulent).

Maybe in some seasons the temps may climb higher but to sustain that temperature for a long period of time can certainly cause health problems. For one water quality will certainly be effected by increasing food to feed the higher metabolism caused by the higher temps. New world cichlids are prone to Head and Lateral Line Errosion which is caused by deteriorating water quality.

There are reasons why you'll find little to no information on this and personally I think it's a terrible idea and most experienced aquarist will agree.

You still have not provided details as far as tank size, actually sizes of fish, and pictures so until then I'm skeptical a Parachromis dovii of any size is behaving simply because you raised the temp.

Well thank you for the assumption that I am inexperienced, I certainly would not make such jab's towards your knowledge without knowing you in person... I personally do a 50% water change every week, which is more then enough to maintain keep high water quality, in fact in my experience I could go as low as 30% every two weeks and it would do fine, though I'm way to OCD for that... Columnaris is easily prevented with two tablespoons salt to every 10 gallons which is where I keep my tank... I personally find that cichlids do not breed when unhealthy, and with the fact they are breeding more I willing to say so far this appears to be a good experiment worth continuing. If you could point me to any article where someone has experimented with this to give you the info to tie in you negativity to real circumstance, I'd be more than happy to agree, but to me it seems that people aren't trying this, and to assume that an animal is best in it's natural environment is rather old fashioned in my opinion as we know that cichlid introduce to North American waters are in many cases thriving more so than in native water. Obviously I am not saying you are wrong, just providing that neither me or you are informed on this and that in my opinion is a reason to find out... Tank is a 90 gallon, but the are actually being moved to a 250 soon, so please no negative comments on overcrowding as with their size it is not overcrowded at all.

As for pictures, I am uploading a video I took earlier this morning with this comment

Cichlids at 89 degrees - YouTube

FYI: I know the male Jewel looks stressed, I ordered him via a mail and he came almost colorless... I think they weren't feeding him right, because his color has been coming in over time and besides his coloration he is definitely showing signs of good health

 

[HUKIT]

Well thank you for the assumption that I am inexperienced, I certainly would not make such jab's towards your knowledge without knowing you in person... I personally do a 50% water change every week, which is more then enough to maintain keep high water quality, in fact in my experience I could go as low as 30% every two weeks and it would do fine, though I'm way to OCD for that... Columnaris is easily prevented with two tablespoons salt to every 10 gallons which is where I keep my tank... I personally find that cichlids do not breed when unhealthy, and with the fact they are breeding more I willing to say so far this appears to be a good experiment worth continuing. If you could point me to any article where someone has experimented with this to give you the info to tie in you negativity to real circumstance, I'd be more than happy to agree, but to me it seems that people aren't trying this, and to assume that an animal is best in it's natural environment is rather old fashioned in my opinion as we know that cichlid introduce to North American waters are in many cases thriving more so than in native water. Obviously I am not saying you are wrong, just providing that neither me or you are informed on this and that in my opinion is a reason to find out... Tank is a 90 gallon, but the are actually being moved to a 250 soon, so please no negative comments on overcrowding as with their size it is not overcrowded at all.

I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that if you post a controversial topic or a unusual stocking suggestion that is far exceeds the normal recommendations on public website please keep in mind your going to receive feedback whether you ask or not. If your not willing to hear peoples opinions then I would suggest not discussing this on a popular aquarium forum. There are reasons why general stocking suggestions are in place, as many have tried and more have failed.

Every week there is a new member here who braggs about their non-conventional tank stocking and goes on and on about everything is good since "they're getting along now" but what you don't hear is about the tank implodes due to aggression and water quality issues when the fish start maturing...that part never gets reposted.

 

[phin]

Also seeing as no one has apparently attempted this and furnished their result, I really wonder how you can know it will shorten lifespans...

It will shorten lifespan because fish are cold-blooded, which really means their body temperature is dependent on their environment. With an increase in temperature their metabolism increases i.e. burns more energy, hence feeding more often and more excrement you are witnessing. Likewise, in extreme low temperatures metabolism will slow, less energy is required for the life functions of the organism, less nutrients, less movement, less waste. This is why you can go ice fishing and catch walleye in 35 degree water. The same fish live in the summertime in water twice that temperature. This is science, nature, biology.

Cold water species of fish with lower metabolism have long lifespans, as the organisms' bodies age less. Warm water species, generally, have shorter lifespans. With a higher metabolism they breed more often, but relative to the same fish in a cold water environment will age faster.

I'd also like to point out that your anecdotal experience is not a scientific experiment and you cannot make any scientific conclusions based on what you are doing. You will observe scientific facts as you replicate environmental variables, but just know that you are not conducting scientific research here. I only make this last statement since you felt the need to question others' advice with the lame statement, "Also seeing as no one has apparently attempted this and furnished their result..." Go ahead, furnish your result. I await for the peer-review process.

 

[opdday2]

I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that if you post a controversial topic or a unusual stocking suggestion that is far exceeds the normal recommendations on public website please keep in mind your going to receive feedback whether you ask or not. If your not willing to hear peoples opinions then I would suggest not discussing this on a popular aquarium forum. There are reasons why general stocking suggestions are in place, as many have tried and more have failed.

Every week there is a new member here who braggs about their non-conventional tank stocking and goes on and on about everything is good since "they're getting along now" but what you don't hear is about the tank implodes due to aggression and water quality issues when the fish start maturing.

The point is that the tank is not overcrowded, at their size it is fine and will be up to a year, the reason I ask for no negative feedback on that is due to the fact that the number of fish in the tank is neither here nor there, this topic is on the experiment at hand and if you wish to discuss the number of fish in the tank, go right on ahead... I am just employing you to keep relevant to the topic at hand and if you are not able to do so, I will not be addressing such topics and it will have no effect in how I manage my fish as I have been doing well for 15 years and am sure I know what I am doing in regards to how my tank is stocked. That said I would like to discuss the topic at hand more and I am not trying to push away negative feedback, just irrelevant.

 

[opdday2]

It will shorten lifespan because fish are cold-blooded, which really means their body temperature is dependent on their environment. With an increase in temperature their metabolism increases i.e. burns more energy, hence feeding more often and more excrement you are witnessing. Likewise, in extreme low temperatures metabolism will slow, less energy is required for the life functions of the organism, less nutrients, less movement, less waste. This is why you can go ice fishing and catch walleye in 35 degree water. The same fish live in the summertime in water twice that temperature. This is science, nature, biology.

Cold water species of fish with lower metabolism have long lifespans, as the organisms' bodies age less. Warm water species, generally, have shorter lifespans. With a higher metabolism they breed more often, but relative to the same fish in a cold water environment will age faster.

I'd also like to point out that your anecdotal experience is not a scientific experiment and you cannot make any scientific conclusions based on what you are doing. You will observe scientific facts as you replicate environmental variables, but just know that you are not conducting scientific research here. I only make this last statement since you felt the need to question others' advice with the lame statement, "Also seeing as no one has apparently attempted this and furnished their result..." Go ahead, furnish your result. I await for the peer-review process.

Your right, that is why most species with faster metabolisms and higher energy use live longer and age slower. All I'm saying is do your research before posting if you are going to make definite claims as if you had you would have found that my beginning statement in this comment is true of almost every species on the planet

Sorry for all the edits: You may want to look up the definition of science as though I made no claim that this is scientific, any experimentation whether it follows the scientific method or not is scientific in nature.

 

[phin]

Your right, that is why most species with faster metabolisms and higher energy use live longer and age slower. All I'm saying is do your research before posting if you are going to make definite claims as if you had you would have found that my beginning statement in this comment is true of almost every species on the planet

I'm sorry. I didn't understand your statement. Did you mean that most species of fish with higher metabolism live longer and age slower?

 

[opdday2]

I'm sorry. I didn't understand your statement. Did you mean that most species of fish with higher metabolism live longer and age slower?

No no, I equated that to all species on the planet, cold or warm blooded... There is an article on fish metabolism from petmd that does support this in fish, but as someone who has read about 40 books on cichlid environment and lifespan info included in many, I have found nobody making bold claims one way or the other... I will point out though that many saltwater fish that I have read about actually have faster metabolism than cichlids at the colder temps they live in so it may be bold for me to claim that they are living longer because of their faster metabolic rates, so I won't.

Edit: Also like to point out that lifespan is not much of a concern in this case as most these fish live 15+ years if properly maintained and even 5 years minus is not much concern to me... I am really intrigued by and studying their lowered aggression and overall healthier appearance.