floating plants: fertilize?

[MrFantastic74]

I have floating plants (S. natans) in my tank, and no other live plants. For the first few weeks, the plants were doing well and quickly multiplied to coat the top and I had to cull some of it. But lately the plants don't seem to be doing so great. The leaves are paler now, and some are getting slightly brown, and I haven't had to cull any plants in a long time, so they aren't multiplying at the same rate any longer.

For lighting, I'm using the Current USA Satellite Pro LED 18". I have the red lights and blue lights both at 100%, and the white lights at 35%. The red and blue help bring out the colors in my fish that are the same colors, and the dimmer white lights help keep the fish calm while also enhancing their shine (I have neon tetras and a betta). I read that plants only need lights in the red and blue spectrum to thrive. I have the LEDs on from 4pm to 11pm, and there is some indirect sunlight during the daytime as well. My understanding is that S. natans is not super demanding regarding light.

I'm not sure if lighting is the problem, so now I'm wondering if the plants are getting enough nutrients from the water. I don't fertilize. Should I be? If so, what should I use? Will it harm the fish? Note that I am also getting pygmy corys sometime soon, and I don't know if they are sensitive.

The tank is 11 gallons. I do weekly 40% water changes and check parameters often (they are fine).

If the plants end up dying, I plan to replace them with soft silk leaves of some kind that won't tear my betta's fins. I can't seem to find anything that works though.

 

[Caliban07]

You need ferts. Floating plants are a good indicator for this. They are close to the light and have access to atmospheric co2 so if they start to falter you know the issue is nutrients.

Because they are closer to the light and are not carbon limited they drink nutrients for fun. If you are doing 40% water changes too (which is a good thing btw) then there is further need to add nutrients.

For you I would suggest a liquid micronutrient fertiliser seachems flourish (not flourish excel) will do that job but you may need to look at their macro nutrient range too such as nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium or NPK. Sometimes the fish create and fish food create enough of these but your tank is lightly stocked with small fish and a fast growing plant.

The alternative to liquid ferts are dry ferts which are more cost effective. You could do a half Estimative index routine.

No they won't harm your fish if you follow the directions.


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[MrFantastic74]

You need ferts. Floating plants are a good indicator for this. They are close to the light and have access to atmospheric co2 so if they start to falter you know the issue is nutrients.

Because they are closer to the light and are not carbon limited they drink nutrients for fun. If you are doing 40% water changes too (which is a good thing btw) then there is further need to add nutrients.

For you I would suggest a liquid micronutrient fertiliser seachems flourish (not flourish excel) will do that job but you may need to look at their macro nutrient range too such as nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium or NPK. Sometimes the fish create and fish food create enough of these but your tank is lightly stocked with small fish and a fast growing plant.

The alternative to liquid ferts are dry ferts which are more cost effective. You could do a half Estimative index routine.

No they won't harm your fish if you follow the directions.


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Thanks for the advice! I'll try seachem flourish and see how that goes.

What happens if I end up with an imbalance of nutrients? Could I end up with tons of algae?

 

[MrFantastic74]

Another question: Does addition of aquarium salt affect plants?
I'm currently dealing with a little fin rot in the tetras so I added 1 tablespoon aquarium salt per 5 gallons. Hopefully that helps. I don't want the betta to be affected.
I noticed the decline in my plants before adding the salt, but they do seem to be a little worse now.
The health of my fish outweighs the health of my plants though.

 

[Caliban07]

Thanks for the advice! I'll try seachem flourish and see how that goes.



What happens if I end up with an imbalance of nutrients? Could I end up with tons of algae?

No probs. Flourish will address the things the plant requires in the smallest amounts but they may be lacking in NPK. In fact, this is more likely the problem.

Edit: no imbalance of nutrients does not cause algae. A deficiency in nutrients causes algae.

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[Caliban07]

Another question: Does addition of aquarium salt affect plants?

I'm currently dealing with a little fin rot in the tetras so I added 1 tablespoon aquarium salt per 5 gallons. Hopefully that helps. I don't want the betta to be affected.

I noticed the decline in my plants before adding the salt, but they do seem to be a little worse now.

The health of my fish outweighs the health of my plants though.

It's not recommended to use salt with plants. I'm not sure how tolerant they actually are though.


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[MrFantastic74]

Thanks. I think I will move my plants to a large bucket of water (no salt) and keep the plants well lit and give them fertilizer. Hopefully they will spring back. Then I'll put them back in my tank when I'm finished with salt treatment. Hopefully that will do the trick.

How do I determine the NPK needs of these plants? Is it complicated?

 

[Caliban07]

Thanks. I think I will move my plants to a large bucket of water (no salt) and keep the plants well lit and give them fertilizer. Hopefully they will spring back. Then I'll put them back in my tank when I'm finished with salt treatment. Hopefully that will do the trick.

How do I determine the NPK needs of these plants? Is it complicated?

No it's not complicated just add the dose stated in the bottle and wait to see if the plants respond. It's best not to think about ratios and needs.

In large tanks with many different varieties of plants with different needs people get round this by adding more nutrients than the plants need. This way the plants will never run out.

This is the principle of the Estimative index method.

http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=dosing-with-dry-salts

Please read this link for details of EI.

This would be overkill without high light and co2 but you can half or even quarter the dose.


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[acewiza]

Recommendation(s)?

For you I would suggest a liquid micronutrient fertiliser seachems flourish (not flourish excel)

Why not Flourish Excel? One of the local fish emporium guys (NOT PetsMart/PetCo) recommended the Flourish Excel, so I'm presently using that in my planted feeder tank.

I just assumed they had plenty of nutes by the presence of food, waste, etc.

 

[Caliban07]

Why not Flourish Excel? One of the local fish emporium guys (NOT PetsMart/PetCo) recommended the Flourish Excel, so I'm presently using that in my planted feeder tank.

I just assumed they had plenty of nutes by the presence of food, waste, etc.

Because excel provides a source of C and we are talking about NP and K


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[acewiza]

Because excel provides a source of C and we are talking about NP and K

Why do you favor a nutrient deficiency hypothesis, as opposed to a light-related issue?

 

[Fresh2o]

Why do you favor a nutrient deficiency hypothesis, as opposed to a light-related issue?

Based on the symptoms (pale color). The Sat+ is plenty of light for a plant that has low light requirements.
The following is from tropica.com:
Salvinia natans is a cosmopolitic floating fern, 1-3 cm, that grows quickly if there is sufficient nutrition and light. Light leaves are a sign of a shortage of micronutrients. It tends to shade light from the plants at the bottom. Salvinia varieties have small hairs on their leaves, making them water resistant. Helps prevent algae by shading parts of the aquarium and using nutrients in the water. Grows very big in the wild and in optimum conditions. A decorative plant for open aquariums.


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[MrFantastic74]

I'm thinking of picking up a variety of seachem flourish liquid fertilizers. Would I be able to mix 4 our 5 types to make my own blend? Like, can I mix the Flourish comprehensive (trace) with Flourish N, Flourish P, Flourish K, Flourish Iron, into one container for ease of use and storage? Of course, I would measure out appropriate proportions before mixing. I would rather just use one bottle at water change time instead of five (or whatever). Does the type of bottle matter (e.g. opaque)? Can I use these fertilizers at the same time that I add Prime (which I always add upon water changes)?

 

[Caliban07]

Why do you favor a nutrient deficiency hypothesis, as opposed to a light-related issue?

Because Salvinia is a floating plant that has access to around 500ppm of carbon and more than enough PAR than it would require to grow healthily so light and carbon can be ruled out in this instance. Also as Fresh2o has stated the symptoms remain constant with mineral deficiencies.

Normally symptoms of of poor light (as in exceeding light compensation point) or carbon results in the plant eating itself and then withering away.


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[Caliban07]

I'm thinking of picking up a variety of seachem flourish liquid fertilizers. Would I be able to mix 4 our 5 types to make my own blend? Like, can I mix the Flourish comprehensive (trace) with Flourish N, Flourish P, Flourish K, Flourish Iron, into one container for ease of use and storage? Of course, I would measure out appropriate proportions before mixing. I would rather just use one bottle at water change time instead of five (or whatever). Does the type of bottle matter (e.g. opaque)? Can I use these fertilizers at the same time that I add Prime (which I always add upon water changes)?

I've read that it is not advisable to mix the macro solutions (NPK) with the micro mix but this refers to dry salts. I'm guessing that, because the commercial liquid macro range comprise of a little of each NPK and essentially the rest water it ok to mix the macros but it don't know what ratios you would use or if it would even save that much time.

Hope this works for you.


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[MrFantastic74]

I've read that it is not advisable to mix the macro solutions (NPK) with the micro mix but this refers to dry salts. I'm guessing that, because the commercial liquid macro range comprise of a little of each NPK and essentially the rest water it ok to mix the macros but it don't know what ratios you would use or if it would even save that much time.

Hope this works for you.


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Thanks for your help!

 

[Caliban07]

Thanks for your help!

No problem. Seriously consider the EI mix. Here is an example from a UK site.

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html

You get potassium phosphate
Potassium nitrate
And a trace mix that contains iron.

You get enough potassium from the nitrate and phosphate salts so you save money on iron and potassium

Plus you can mix your own solutions.


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[MrFantastic74]

I moved my plants to a bucket and covered it with a spare LED tank light that I'm just leaving on all the time. I ordered some fertilizers online. While I wait for them to arrive (should be a week or two) I'm wondering if I can add any of the plant fertilizers that I have in my house, like Miracle Gro, to the water. There are no fish to harm in the bucket, but I'm wondering if it would be unsafe to move the plants back into the tank in a few weeks time when my fishes' salt treatment is done. What if I rinse the plants before adding them back?

 

[fishenthusiast]

I've read that it is not advisable to mix the macro solutions (NPK) with the micro mix but this refers to dry salts. I'm guessing that, because the commercial liquid macro range comprise of a little of each NPK and essentially the rest water it ok to mix the macros but it don't know what ratios you would use or if it would even save that much time.

Hope this works for you.


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A nasty precipitate can form from mixing micros and macros (from the iron in the macros, I believe), so that's why it's advisable to dose on opposite ends of the tank and not together in one bottle.


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[MrFantastic74]

A nasty precipitate can form from mixing micros and macros (from the iron in the macros, I believe), so that's why it's advisable to dose on opposite ends of the tank and not together in one bottle.


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So, I take it I shouldn't mix the ferts in the "new" water when I do water changes before adding it to the tank? That was my plan. I also add Prime at the same time.