3 months fishless cycle...and still going- ARGH!

[PebbleVB]

I got some really good info here on how to start a fishless cycle and set up my 10-gallon late, last October. It took nearly 2.5 months for my tank to get zero reading for ammonia. Since then, I started adding a few more drops of ammonia to keep the cycle going. My nitrite reading for the last month has been 5+ ppm. My ammonia level has gone down to zero twice and after each time it gets to zero, I continue adding a few more drops of ammonia to the tank.

It's been such a long road and I don't know if anyone has started a fishless cycle and it has gone for 3+ months. I'm worried I'm not doing something correctly. Is there a way for me to speed this up? I also notice that whenever I get ammonia to have some readings, it would normally take at least another 2+ weeks for it to go down to zero. So basically, my tank is cycling extremely slow....Please, please someone let me know if I need to do anything differently? I have one beta, and I adore the guy, I really can't wait to put him into a bigger tank...Please help!

Much appreciated!

 

[ScaryFatKidGT]

Id just throw a fish in it lol, like 1 danio

 

[Fresh2o]

1. What kind of filter are you using?
2. What kind of maintenance do you perform on the filter (cleaning, changing cartridges, etc)?
3. What is the weekly water change schedule like?
4. Are you certain that the ammonia is free of dyes, surfactants, perfumes, and other additives?
5. When you add ammonia, what level (in ppm) do you get it to?
6. How long does it take for the ammonia to get to zero?
7. What decor and substrate are you using in the tank?
8. Have any cleaning products or other chemicals been used near the tank?


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[TankinWithUs]

following!

 

[Rivers2k]

Add fish! If you do it slowly no harm will come to fish. People have been doing fish in cycling for decades. Add 2 or 3 small fish.

 

[Linwood]

I'm in the middle of doing a fishless cycle on a quarantine tank, and it does seem long, but 3 months is too long.

Some things that may speed it up include: warm temperatures (say around 82), make sure the tank is open to the air if you did not "seed" it, as some bacteria can arrive in the tank that way.


Are you using RODI water (or distilled)? If so, you might need to make sure you have some buffer (sodium bicarbonate - baking soda -- just a tiny pinch) and phosphate (from some aquarium fertilizers usually, again just a tiny, tiny, tiny pinch). But only if RODI/distilled water, tap water should be OK. (though it wouldn't hurt to put in just a tiny pinch).

I've also been told to throw a bit of fish food in the tank to let it rot as a source of "other stuff" that might help.

Now all that said, I'm on week 3 of the nitrite phase in mine, which seems a bit long to me. But mine will convert 4ppm ammonia to nitrites and read zero by 24 hours; if yours is taking weeks with each ammonia dosing, something is wrong.

FreshO2 had some good questions.

 

[Hholly]

Has your ph dropped? You may want to do a large water change and redose the ammonia. When the ph drops the beneficial bacteria stall out. A water change adds buffers back into the water and things start cooking again.
Check this out: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/the-almost-complete-guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling/
Good luck!

 

[jlk]

Is your bettas present home cycled and running with a filter? Have you been doing regular wcs on the cycling tank? What is your ph? Some more information will help us to help you better!


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[PebbleVB]

Hi, Fresh2o - Please see my answers to your questions. Thank you so much for taking the time!

1. What kind of filter are you using? = AquaClear 20 Power filter. It's installed at the same time I set up the new tank, so it's been in it for 3 + months.
2. What kind of maintenance do you perform on the filter (cleaning, changing cartridges, etc)? = No, I haven't done any maintenance to the filter; no cleaning, no changing the cartridges. It's been running for the past 3+ months without me doing anything to it.
3. What is the weekly water change schedule like? = I don't do weekly water change to the tank. I am using the Eheim Jager water heater and positioned it vertically to my 10-gallon tank so whenever the water level gets a bit close to the minimum water level shown on the water heater, I added 10 ml of Prime to a separate container, then add tap water directly to this container, mix it up, then dump it into the tank. I would say I add about 1.5 gallon of this mixture to the tank about once/ 2 weeks. So I haven't done any water change.
4. Are you certain that the ammonia is free of dyes, surfactants, perfumes, and other additives? = Yes, this I know for sure because I did check it on here from other people who advised how to look/ test (shaking the bottle).
5. When you add ammonia, what level (in ppm) do you get it to? = Last time, which is recently, about 4 days ago, I accidentally added .5 ml to the tank and it caused my ammonia reading to go 4 ppm, so the next day, I did 40% water change to the tank. Please note, this was the only time I did any water change to the tank since last October. I added 10 ml Prime to a separate container and added tap water directly to it, and dump that to the tank until it completely fills the tank. The time before this, I added 6 drops of ammonia, and the reading was 1 ppm and it took about 1.5 weeks for it to go down to zero.
6. How long does it take for the ammonia to get to zero? = My tank so far has reached zero ammonia reading twice. The first time it reaches zero was 3 months after I started the fishless cycle.
7. What decor and substrate are you using in the tank? = I have two silk plants, the dark substrate I got from Petco, and nothing else. I didn't have any established "good" bacteria added ...
8. Have any cleaning products or other chemicals been used near the tank? = absolutely not.

Please let me know if I can provide further info so you can help me! Thanks again!!

 

[PebbleVB]

Hi, Linwood -

I am fearing the worse, that 3+ months is really way too long so now I know for sure I did something incorrectly. Please keep in mind that I am totally new to keeping fish/ aquarium. I started out with wanting to have a "friend" at work - so I thought betta fish would be perfect. I started out with keeping my first betta in a one gallon tank for several months. I love him, but I killed him because of a/ over feeding the guy, b/ added water with drastic temperature change. I still am very upset about the whole experience until this day, and since then, I'm determined to have my second betta, Satao in a 10 gallon tank, cycled, with water heater and filter. I love these fishes...

Currently, I set the 10-gallon tank to be in the upper 80s and I just installed the "bubble curtain" purchased from WM yesterday. Thank you for letting me know about keeping the tank opened. I'll do that.


I honestly have no idea what "RODI" water is. I used Prime and add tap water to it. You mentioned about "buffer". Can you give me detailed instructions for this, please? Again, I really don't know anything about aquarium.

About the fish foods...I'll do that. How often do you add in the fish foods?

I am jealous to know that it takes your tank 24 hours to convert 4ppm ammonia to nitrites in 24 hours! I'd take me at least another 2 months if I keep on doing what I have been doing. I am really hoping I can learn from all of you to make this faster for my betta!

 

[PebbleVB]

Argh...I have not tested for ph level. I've been concentrating on testing ammonia and nitrite. I'll have to do that tomorrow and report back. Thank you!

 

[PebbleVB]

Hi, jlk - My betta is staying in a 3 gallon tank with no filter and it's not a cycle tank. I only have the water heater on for him and waiting for the 10-gallon tank to cycled. I have no idea that I need to do regular water change on the tank that's I'm trying to cycle. Can you let me know how often I need to do that? I've read the instruction here and no where it mentioned to do any water change during the period of trying to cycle my tank, or maybe I'm just really stupid not knowing. I have not tested for pH level of my tank so I'll do that tomorrow and report back.

Thank you so much for your feedback!

 

[Fresh2o]

Pebble - Thanks for the responses. Hope it did not sound like an inquisition. Sometimes when folks post situations they are having and omit details it takes several pages of posts to uncover some valuable info.
After looking at the answers you provided, I looked at the initial post and saw that the nitrite is quite elevated. Coupled with the infrequent water changes, it appears that the culprit might be the high nitrite levels (has been reported to stall a cycle).
What I would do is a big water change to bring things down and re-dose the ammonia to 2 ppm. An AA member named MrFisher sold seeded media (I believe using AC filter sponges). Might want to check that out. Good luck with this.
Oh yes, check the pH as mentioned above.


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[jlk]

Thanks! Definitely let us know how your ph looks before a big water change (as in drain the tank). Check your levels before adding any ammonia- if your ammonia and nitrites are not zero, do another water change.

I would not add more than .5- 1ppm of ammonia as a single betta in a 10g tank is unlikely to ever produce even close to this much ammonia. Then ignore your tank for a couple of days (yes, put away the ammonia and tests!). Test everything on a few days and let us know how things look.

I suspect you may actually have sufficient bacteria developed but they have been overwhelmed by excessive nitrite levels and possibly a low ph/lack of buffers. Water changes should help in this department. Adding cycled media always is a plus, too. Try not to stress too much either! Please ask any questions!


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[PebbleVB]

Hi, Fresh2o- I just did another test and here are my results:
Ammonia = 0 ppm (don't ask me how that happened.....)
Nitrite = I'm going to say it is between 4 - 3 ppm ; it's a bit difficult to tell but it's definitely high
pH = 7.6

I actually put in 8 drops of ammonia prior to having the chance to get to the computer to see your response. So I think what I do now is to do a 50% water change as suggested, and get the "seed". I'll contact the member you mentioned about it. Thanks again so much!

 

[PebbleVB]

Hi, jlk - I just did a test earlier, prior to getting to the computer to receive your reply so here are the results:
ammonia = 0 ppm (not sure how that happened?)
Nitrite = probably between 4- 3 ppm (it is still high)
pH = 7.6 (I did not test for the "high range pH", should I do this too and report back?)
So I added in 8 drops of ammonia to the tank earlier.....Was that a bad idea?

As you can see Fresh2o's response....I also need to do a water change, but I'm not sure how much I need to do that - is it 50%? And also, it's still ok for me to add Prime every time I re-fill the tank right? If I do 50% water change, do I add 10 mL of Prime for my 10 gallon tank, or should I only need to do 5 mL since I'm taking out about 5 gallons of water? Sorry, I know I do sound silly, but I really have no clue, just relying on experienced people like you and Fresh2o to tell me what to do next - hope you guys don't mind! And thanks so much for your help!

 

[Linwood]

I honestly have no idea what "RODI" water is. I used Prime and add tap water to it. You mentioned about "buffer". Can you give me detailed instructions for this, please? Again, I really don't know anything about aquarium.

About the fish foods...I'll do that. How often do you add in the fish foods?

RODI (reverse osmosis deoinized) water is a special filter that provides what is not exactly, but is nearly equivalent to, distilled water. If you are using tap water instead, ignore all my comments on buffers, etc.

Food: Just a small pinch once, let it rot. Might not help. Won't hurt. The initial cycle is not aimed at good clean water; in some ways a bit of the reverse. Others recommend throwing in a dead fish or shrimp - also not a bad idea, but distasteful to some people.

One thing I noticed in your story is nitrites. Are you using the API Liquid test kit for nitrites? It has an oddity -- with VERY high nitrites, it reads low. When you first put in the 5 drops, look at the bottom before shaking, and it turns a deep, dark purple, you are off the scale high. If you shake it and wait, it might turn back to a blue that can be misleading. If you are not using the API Liquid test ignore this comment.

Let's back up a bit. You said it's a 10g tank, and you said also you were using 10ml prime. That's enough prime for 100 gallons, or a 10x too much Prime. Did I read that correctly?

Prime has an impact on various nitrogen compounds (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), and I am not sure how they may affect your testing if you are way over-dosing Prime.

The proper dose of Prime is 1 milliliter for 10 gallons. 1 milliliter is about 20 small drops if you don't have a measuring syringe (etc), or it's one ring in the cap (not the whole cap but 1/5th), though I find it hard to tell where an inclined ring starts and stops.

Can a big over-dose stall a cycle? I really don't know. But if you really are over-dosing prime that much, I would start by doing a massive water change (near 100%) with fresh water made up with the proper dose, just as you were mixing it but the right amount. Big water changes (if you don't screw around with the filters and surfaces) will not affect the cycle negatively, but if there's residual prime in the tank and that's a problem it will clear it up.

I have heard high nitrites can stall a cycle; I have also heard it really doesn't matter, within reason, in a fishless cycle. I do not know which is true (I lean toward the latter though), but the safe answer is to keep the nitrites in a reasonable range (say 5ppm or less), with the caveat on readings as mentioned above. Also, do not do water tests until about 24 hours after adding water, or maybe 48 hours since you are using Prime, as they might be misleading (I do not know what the right period is-- just you need to wait a bit, and I think 48 is safe).

 

[Linwood]

If I do 50% water change, do I add 10 mL of Prime for my 10 gallon tank, or should I only need to do 5 mL since I'm taking out about 5 gallons of water? Sorry, I know I do sound silly, but I really have no clue, just relying on experienced people like you and Fresh2o to tell me what to do next - hope you guys don't mind! And thanks so much for your help!

Prime is very strong, check the dose.

The best way to add prime is to add it to a mixing bucket (that's a good time to be sure the temperature is compatible when you get fish involved), with an amount to match the water in the bucket (not the tank). So if you are using a 5G bucket you want half a milliliter, or about 10 small drops.

I know some people go with tap water directly into the tank, and add a full tank's worth of prime before adding a water change. And their fish do fine, but this never made sense to me, at least not when dealing with small volumes.

But I think you are using a massive overdose. I really don't know if that's a big problem with the cycle, but long ago I learned when not sure of how to proceed, "Fix the known problem and see what happens" is not a bad idea.

 

[PebbleVB]

Hi, Linnwood-

Thank you for your time to help - it's much appreciated as I need ALL the help I can at this point...Every time I look at my poor betta, I feel horrible for the fact that I have no idea what's going to help him with his new home.... I'm attempting to answer your questions below:

RODI (reverse osmosis deoinized) water is a special filter that provides what is not exactly, but is nearly equivalent to, distilled water. = Do I need to buy a distilled water instead?

One thing I noticed in your story is nitrites. Are you using the API Liquid test kit for nitrites? = Yes, I'm using the API liquid test kit to test everything. I do know that whenever I first dropped in the 5 drops, the bottom stays blue, then after shaking it, and let it sit for about 20 seconds, I always notice the color quickly turns to purple and by the time the 5 minutes are up, it's definitely high. However, earlier today, when I tested my nitrite, I believe it is Slightly less, I would say it registered between 4 and 3 ppm, but definitely not less than 3 ppm....

Let's back up a bit. You said it's a 10g tank, and you said also you were using 10ml prime. That's enough prime for 100 gallons, or a 10x too much Prime. Did I read that correctly? = I am so sorry, I meant one mL of Prime....Argh....!!! Thanks for checking this!

Based on previous responses from Fresh2o and jlk, I just did a 50% water change. I read their feedbacks, responded back, then couldn't sit still so I went ahead and did the 50% water change. Prior to this water change, I tested and ammonia is 0, nitrite is between 4-3 and pH is 7.6...
So....I think what I'll do now is wait until tomorrow's afternoon to do the test reading again and I'll report back.

Thanks again for taking the time to write/ help! It's much appreciated!

 

[Linwood]

If the ammonia is zero, that's good, right? How long did it take after your last dose of ammonia to go to zero?

Once you can process 3-4ppm in 24 hours of ammonia, you are past the first hump. Standard advice is to keep dosing ammonia that high, though I believe you only really need to add a small amount to keep the ammonia consuming bacteria fed - all the ammonia you put in is just creating more nitrites that aren't being consumed fast enough (yet). But I would keep dosing ammonia up to 3-4ppm until you see it go from that much to zero in about 24 hours.

Glad you are doing the right amount of prime, but even then - wait 24 hours after water with prime is added before doing water tests (or 24 hours after a water change just for any good reason).

As to RODI / Distilled water: You should not need it. It's just that the things that can go wrong are different if you are using it.