4+ weeks of Cycling Fishless and no changes...what am I doing wrong?

[Mr. Limpet]

I agree with using what you've got. I'd prefer to go the opposite route. My personal conclusion like I said though, is that there is something either IN the water, or MISSING from the water preventing this from happening. Especially in libraygirl's case when she had fish for a long period as well as fishless cycling for all this time and never seeing no2. How long has it been altogether? 10 weeks?

The Admin I consulted with recommended RO/DI to cycle, but I agree with Mr. Limpet, I feel the same way...just presenting the options. I throw my last vote for CC in...and bow out. I obviously don't get paid to convince people to do things (this site actually costs me $, lol), but taking every bit of knowledge I've gained about cycling...I am convinced that something is preventing bacteria from growing. If Prime does truly neutralize everything...by process of elimination...it's something that's not in there they need.

I thnk you hit the nail on the head thet there's something missing from the water to keep the bacteria alive. That point was discussed in the link I posted.

EDIT: hehe... $15.02 isn't much eco and I'd pay double that if I didn't have to use paypal.

 

[firteen888]

what could possibly be missing from the water that causes this? Are there any products available that we can apply to our tanks to supply what is missing?

 

[eco23]

what could possibly be missing from the water that causes this? Are there any products available that we can apply to our tanks to supply what is missing?

*cough* uhm..crushed coral *cough* lol

 

[eco23]

There are lots of buffering products you can buy...but I will always choose a natural product as opposed to something in a can. I've heard good things about the Seachem marine buffer, but personally I'd rather hang a bag of coral in my filter instead of dosing something in a bottle with a label. It also scares me with the buffering products when people say they add this...but they like to counter act it with that, etc... It's a slippery slope when you start adding chems or powders into your tank.

 

[firteen888]

My PH levels are perfect according to the API test kit. I don't think Crushed Coral is the answer here.

 

[eco23]

My PH levels are perfect according to the API test kit. I don't think Crushed Coral is the answer here.

Did you read the article Mr. Limpet linked? It's not just about pH...not by a long shot.

 

[tlkng1]

I admit I didn't read through all of the posts so if this was laready mentioned I apologize

If you are using the API test kit, Prime and API don't mesh very well..there is a good chance you will always get a low level ammonia reading. The API kit doesn't so well with Amquel either and this is from API themselves.

I went through something similar a couple of years back. Fish were happy and playful but I had a constant 1.0 ammonia reading despite mega water changes, ammocarb in the filter and even using RO/DI water but I always added either Prime or Amquel anyway. I went to the API site thinking maybe the directions I had were wrong and the site indicated Prime and Amquel can give a false ammonia reading with the API kit. When I quit dosing with Prime or Amquel, the ammonia reading vanished.

 

[eco23]

I admit I didn't read through all of the posts so if this was laready mentioned I apologize

If you are using the API test kit, Prime and API don't mesh very well..ther eis a good chance you will always get a low level ammonia reading. The API kit doesn't so well with Amquel either and this is from API themselves.

I went through something similar a couple of years back. Fish were happy and playful but I had a constant 1.0 ammonia reading despite mega water changes, ammocarb in the filter and even using RO/DI water but I always added either Prime or Amquel anyway. I went to the API site thinking maybe the directions I had were wrong and the site indicated Prime and Amquel can give a false ammonia reading with the API kit. When I quit dosing with Prime or Amquel, the ammonia reading vanished.

Thanks, but this is regarding fishless cycling. There are no fish in the tank.

 

[firteen888]

Did you read the article Mr. Limpet linked? It's not just about pH...not by a long shot.

I certainly tried, but that info is way over my head.

Prime and Amquel can give a false ammonia reading with the API kit. When I quit dosing with Prime or Amquel, the ammonia reading vanished.

Thanks for this info, but I think we both would have seen Nitrites if our tanks were cycling correctly. But this is good info to know.

 

[tlkng1]

The trouble with RO|DI water in a FW, is that it strips everything from the water including essential nutrients. SW tanks use it safely because salt like Instant Ocean (IO) add needed ones back in. I wouldn't recommend it in FW and I don't even use it in my BW setup (while using IO).

FYI: RO|DI units can be had for $130.00.

Here's a webpage that's a good read with some valuable info on buffers/buffering.

Calcium, KH, GH, pH, Electrolytes & Magnesium in Aquariums; Mineral Ions, Cations

Kent sells a product called RO right. It adds back to the RO/DI water what is needed for freshwater applications.

I am lucky in that one of my LFS' sells both pre-made salt and freshwater both. It's one stop shopping and I can buy the containers once and just get them refilled. Now, if only water didn't weigh so much.......

 

[eco23]

You guys should PM a member called Pigeonfood and ask him about his cycle. It was ridiculously slow until we figured out the problem. It took absolutely forever to cycle. His pH was absolutely steady at 7.4- 7.6. I didn't worry about his alkalinity because of that number. He finally showed nitrItes...then they froze. I had him check his pH and it had absolutely slammed down to the 5ish range because he had low alkalinity like you. He did a pwc and restarted. The same thing happened again. He added a small bag of aragonite (similar to CC) and he cycled in a week. This is proof that pH is not a direct relation to the alkalinity and buffers the beneficial bacteria need to colonize. PM him and ask what he thinks of my advice.

 

[tlkng1]

Thanks, but this is regarding fishless cycling. There are no fish in the tank.

It doesn't matter if the tank has fish in it or not. Prime and Amquel can cause erroneous readings when used in conjunction with the API kit. I negelected to add that I tested straight water (straight form the tap) after dosing it with Prime and came up with ammonia even though the straight water (undosed) wasn't reading ammonia.

 

[eco23]

It doesn't matter if the tank has fish in it or not. Prime and Amquel can cause erroneous readings when used in conjunction with the API kit. I negelected to add that I tested straight water (straight form the tap) after dosing it with Prime and came up with ammonia even though the straight water (undosed) wasn't reading ammonia.

The Prime only binds with the Ammonia and renders it non-toxic for ~36 hours, it doesn't remove the ammonia. That is why it tests positive on an API kit. In an established tank the bio-filter will consume the ammo within 24 hours. Since this is a fishless cycle where there is not an established biofilter to consume it...the ammo reading is correct even though it may be temporarily bound for that time. The same principle applies for no2.

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to try the crushed coral first, along with some seeded gravel that I may be able to get my hands on this week. Also just to be sure, is this the stuff I want: http://www.amazon.com/CaribSea-Flor...GFK2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1307378805&sr=8-5

My question with using the coral is: if it works and I then remove it prior to adding fish, would this cause the water/cycle to become unstable again once the coral is removed? Also, would I need to put it in the tank in a stocking or in the filter, or does it not matter? My filter pad is large and takes up most of the whole filter area except for 2 small gaps before the filter that are approximately 1"-2" wide and a couple of inches deep, so I wouldn't be able to get much in there.

I did a quick search for RO/DI water and just got a bunch of filters for reefs that are $100+ dollars, out fo my range at the moment and looks too complicated for my purposes. I'd probably just give up on having fish if it came down to having to purchase a fancy mechanism. I couldn't find anything about buying the actual water but I'm guessing that would also become expensive with weekly water changes.

Perhaps I should either stop using Prime or switch to a different liquid kit other than API? Perhaps the two aren't playing together so well? Or perhaps it's the Prime, maybe it doesn't like my water (or vice versa)? My current small bottle is running low anyway so I need to replace it with something; are there other dechlorinators out there that would be effective? Would I also need a seperate stress coat (I think Prime does both)?

 

[eco23]

Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to try the crushed coral first, along with some seeded gravel that I may be able to get my hands on this week.

My question with using the coral is: if it works and I then remove it prior to adding fish, would this cause the water/cycle to become unstable again once the coral is removed?

I did a quick search for RO/DI water and just got a bunch of filters for reefs that are $100+ dollars, out fo my range at the moment and looks too complicated for my purposes. I'd probably just give up on having fish if it came down to having to purchase a fancy mechanism. I couldn't find anything about buying the actual water but I'm guessing that would also become expensive with weekly water changes.

Perhaps I should either stop using Prime or switch to a different liquid kit other than API? Perhaps the two aren't playing together so well? Or perhaps it's the Prime, maybe it doesn't like my water (or vice versa)? My current small bottle is running low anyway so I need to replace it with something; are there other dechlorinators out there that would be effective? Would I also need a seperate stress coat (I think Prime does both)?

Once the tank is cycled, there should be no need as long as you perform weekly pwc's. Cycling wreaks havoc on the alkalinity since the nitrIfying bacteria are rapidly consuming the buffers that are there, as well as the actual ammonia has base properties which can cause fluctuations. Obviously once you're cycled, just keep tabs on the pH and worry about it only then.

As to Prime...it's not the problem. It's what virtually every experienced member on this site recommends.

Keep me in the loop...you're a smart girl / woman , and we're gonna get you moving.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

You guys should PM a member called Pigeonfood and ask him about his cycle. It was ridiculously slow until we figured out the problem. It took absolutely forever to cycle. His pH was absolutely steady at 7.4- 7.6. I didn't worry about his alkalinity because of that number. He finally showed nitrItes...then they froze. I had him check his pH and it had absolutely slammed down to the 5ish range because he had low alkalinity like you. He did a pwc and restarted. The same thing happened again. He added a small bag of aragonite (similar to CC) and he cycled in a week. This is proof that pH is not a direct relation to the alkalinity and buffers the beneficial bacteria need to colonize. PM him and ask what he thinks of my advice.

I think you're right, but using aragonite might be the better choice, don't you?

"Crushed Coral is primarily made up of Calcium Carbonates (CaCO3) and has VERY LITTLE bicarbonates while Aragonite is of similar make up, but has a much better surface area for dissolving of minerals making it a better choice of the two."

 

[librarygirl]

Once the tank is cycled, there should be no need as long as you perform weekly pwc's. Cycling wreaks havoc on the alkalinity since the nitrIfying bacteria are rapidly consuming the buffers that are there, as well as the actual ammonia has base properties which can cause fluctuations. Obviously once you're cycled, just keep tabs on the pH and worry about it only then.

As to Prime...it's not the problem. It's what virtually every experienced member on this site recommends.

Keep me in the loop...you're a smart girl / woman , and we're gonna get you moving.

Thank you Ok I'm going to get the crushed coral ASAP and let you know when it's in. How much should I put in and is it OK to put it in a stocking in the tank water as the room in my actual filter is limited.

 

[eco23]

I think you're right, but using aragonite might be the better choice, don't you?

"Crushed Coral is primarily made up of Calcium Carbonates (CaCO3) and has VERY LITTLE bicarbonates while Aragonite is of similar make up, but has a much better surface area for dissolving of minerals making it a better choice of the two."

The CC I've been seeing recently at Petsmart and Petco have aragonite mixed in. At this point, anything is better than nothing...but I'll throw my support behind aragonite too

 

[eco23]

Thank you Ok I'm going to get the crushed coral ASAP and let you know when it's in. How much should I put in and is it OK to put it in a stocking in the tank water as the room in my actual filter is limited.

They sell mesh media bags at the fish stores. Just a good handful stuffed in will work. An unwashed stocking will work too, but I personally like the media bags.

Make sure to rinse it well. It will cloud the tank for a few hours but will settle out.

 

[eco23]

I think you're right, but using aragonite might be the better choice, don't you?

"Crushed Coral is primarily made up of Calcium Carbonates (CaCO3) and has VERY LITTLE bicarbonates while Aragonite is of similar make up, but has a much better surface area for dissolving of minerals making it a better choice of the two."

Also, I think aragonite is much sharper isn't it? If I remember correctly, I think that's why I started mentioning CC because some people decide to add it directly onto the substrate. Doesn't matter if it's in a bag obviously. Pretty sure it's more $ too.