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Christmasfish

Aquarium Advice Addict
Joined
Jan 11, 2004
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The South-SOoTHWEsT that is
Akira the betta has recovered from the dropsy symptoms but he begins to fade each time he is out of our company for more than 30 minutes. He is so bleached out and thin and wont take more than a few specks of food from your fingers..if near his face. He floats up top all day now instead of being sunk at the bottom like an old pinecone.
He has been like a bizarre ornament on me this whole 2 weeks. People at Albertson's now know him and inquire on in his recovery...."how's the sick white fish..that pretty one..is he gonna make it?"
I am sure I am gonna go down in local history as a kook who "walks" her pet fish.... and it isn't even MY fish darnit!
he has an appointment at 1:30pm today to have a work up (Don't ask me how they do that with a fish..I can't imagine being able to get biopsies and blood from such a small being...)

Wish him luck..cuz whatever fixes him will fix the whole lot!
 
Considering that there are some goldfish that live for 30 years (longer than most dogs), there must be some vets out there that will take finned patients, no? I wonder if there are any regional lists of vets who will work with fish.

An Xmasfish, I hope Akira gets better. Frankly, I'm amazed that you were able to nurse him back from the dropsy. Good luck!
 
So how did it go? what happened? What did they say? What did they do? Um...I think those are all my questions for now...
 
60 dollars later......
The young, fresh -out- of- school Dr. Kildare is specializing in salmonoides and perchiformes..main doc is into Koi.
Fishy died during a pause in exam, so he decided to check it out "so I wouldn't leave empty handed" . How sweet. He said he doesn't expect so any fish except high dollar animals on the verge of death. ha!
little does he know that Akira was a $60 fish of an $80 pair on discouunt!
So poor wee Akira's body shall be defiled for the sake of science and the sake of the fish still here.
So far this evening's call had all manner of scarey scientific jumbo mentioned as coming up on teh slides of gill slime and biopsy flesh. I get the report hopefully this thursday evening. Surprised the fish was alive!! Maybe he died last week and I have been dealing with his ghost!!
and lots of "not common to bettas" tsk-tsking and squeezing me of every detail of this fishes shortened life.
I got some suspects named and now I go to internet to figure how the heck it is spelled :roll: :lol: and what is it?!
foritum...hydrophila..brancophylum..terophilli...
heh.. that way sounds like a gregorian curse against hoagies!!
androplasty..sounds sooo familiar..And I am sure it isn't turning fish to people with plastic surgery!

more question than answers so far. poor fishy..i was kinda puling for him at this point :cry:
 
Here goes..I hope I didn't miss too much of teh report for you med students.... it was a gif and wouldn't copy and paste
the english version for my daughter will be next.....
About your fish Mrs. King;
Obviously you must have been exerting a lot of effort to keep this animal alive. I wish he had been brought sooner as an aggressive treatment schedule would have cured his syptomatic illnesses. But other findings point to a short life and an unsuitability to be breeding stock.
Akira: 8 month male old betta splendens, fancy variety derived of line breeding
Findings for animal upon viewing slides was severe bacterial infecction signs with bacteria still present in different amount. The main suspected causative agent is Mycobacterium fortuitum
Original suspect was pseudoloma but symptoms are actually in relation to changes caused by the Mycobacterium and an acute case of Hypochondroplasia; associated with these changes are intervertebral disk disease and joint dysplasia, suspected to be a genetic anomalies caused by linebreeding with the presence of an immature endoctrine system and enlarged heart with atrophied protions as in underdevelopment.. Kidney and liver damage apparent as both organs are very undeveloped for stated animal age. I would suspect this is only a further complication impacting mortality.
Present were Areonomas hydrophila (sp Ranae). Likely as a secondary infection but not a common agent in a regionally bred animal. Also present in amounts that can be causative is Capillaria pterophylii. Signs in the owners claim of aggressive medication are present, but the titers reflect weaker dosage than would be effecient.
Also present are Coccidiodes...possibly immitis...very unsual in an aquatic animal.

(here words like serum antibody titers and lots of gobbledy gook chem strings vs percentages enter the lil mail up image and two tables)

Findings
01 Acute renal failure due to:
A. nephronophthisis likely due to bacterial infection
B. abnormally constructed organs
a)caudate lobe is not developed on right side
b)renal cortical necrosis,

02 Sac in the anterior abdomen shows signs of possible past viral infection based on:
A. complete necrosis of the rete mirabile
B. scarring and acute inflammation of sac epithelium

03 secondary infection of areonomas attacking gill structure and labyrinth cavity and epidermal layers

04 secondary infection of Capillaria pterophylii . affecting gill function and also likely causitive agent of "dropsy" symtoms
05 no evidence of enviromental cause
06 hypoplastic heart.with:..significant hemodynamic alteration and moderate aortic stenosis
A. apparent cardiomeagalyto left ventricle
B occlusive coronary Severe LV hypoplasia. with 70% of right anteriir decent
C concentric atrophy of r vetricle
D complex cardiac anomalies producing cyanosis.
E generalisesd atherosclerosis most likely becase scarring from bacterial agents

then the cause of death was put as the Mycobacterium and the other factors as the suppoting cast..sheesh! and it lived all this time!!
 
I think I got it all...now I have a migrain..I understand..renal..atrophied and acute... :lol: the rest is greek! I hope I transfered them with spelling intact! And HE claims he made it easy to read!!! 8O :oops:
I feel stupid...
 
8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
Easy to read!?!? Goodness no!
Basically what I got out of that is this fish developed oddly and then got sick.

Does this in any way impact your other fish? Do you have other bettas from the same line??
 
Actually no, none of that line are left..all the opaques and half albinos from that line are gone. They were all first betta to die after Cookie. His two sibs and one other less related fish

well fresh out of school.. :lol: :p he forgets us regular people need it simple and closer too "ook! ugh-ick!" :roll: I recognized three out of 7 words and I think he assumed me a but more advanced in schooling..hahha! I await anna to check her mail
 
In my uneducated guessing I would say that the fish was probably completely normal and somehow unfrtunatly exposed to some bacteria that cause the dropsy and internal organ damage occured as a result. I don't stay up much on freshwater anymore but either way I am sorry to hear of any ill fish. My condolences.
 
I am suprised that the fish lived for so long. I can actually understand the gooberdy-gook! The main thing that strikes me is the finding of LV hypoplasia, and cyanotic cardiac anomolies. Babies (human) with these conditions die within days unless they have a heart transplant. So it is a testament to your good care that the fish lived so long!

PS - if you need a translation of the findings to English, let me know.
 
Jsoong Really? translations would be nice..he finally did a loose translation for my kid..but all this piqued my interest... i expected just ...disease..name of disease and "fish is deceased from cause" on it. The lab work up is just untransferrable as english. Looks more like calculus in a spreadsheet form.^_^
I am not sure how they got that much info out of a lil scrap of flesh that used to be a betta.
Least I know why the one term was familiar..it is simiar to the vet terms for persian hibrid characteristics...because of their partial dwarfism
I know renal is kidney problems and the like...
I know atrophied is about shrinkage or maybe not growing?
an a cute isn't cute at all..it is severe
and then it loses me.... I took SOME biology. Not THAT much!
i am mostly curious on what diseases bother what fish parts... and why it hit all of this bloodline and spared others...

I am still looking for the right keywords to search out some of this stuff..
wak!
I am too sick this week to deal man.... i may sleep through a day!
Least everyone else seems to be doing well except the last discus. Adn it looks better everyday. Anna is stricken because she lost a half dozen Betta to this stuff and a half dozen to her killer plakat. Hurt her stock lines. And because she thought this all came from being a day off schedule one week (24 hours is not gonna make your weekly+ changed tank a pool of death). Darn perfectionist!
 
OK XmasFish, here's the translation:

Christmasfish said:
Findings for animal upon viewing slides was severe bacterial infecction signs with bacteria still present in different amount. The main suspected causative agent is Mycobacterium fortuitum...

He took samples from the fish (usu. scrapings from skin, gill or other suspicious looking areas) and looked under a microscope, he saw signs of infections caused by Mycobacterium fortutium. Mycobacterium is an acid fast bacillus (it takes up a specific stain on the slide - that's one way to identified it) and is related to TB (tuberculosis).

In the general discussion area, there is a sticky on fish disease & human health - that thread talks about this bug getting on fish-keeper's hand & resulting in chronic infection & amputation of digits! My suggestion - disinfect your tank, etc. lest you come down with this. Also talk to your doc if you have non-healing ulcers/wounds on your hands.

Christmasfish said:
Original suspect was pseudoloma but symptoms are actually in relation to changes caused by the Mycobacterium and an acute case of Hypochondroplasia; associated with these changes are intervertebral disk disease and joint dysplasia, suspected to be a genetic anomalies caused by linebreeding with the presence of an immature endoctrine system and enlarged heart with atrophied protions as in underdevelopment.. Kidney and liver damage apparent as both organs are very undeveloped for stated animal age. I would suspect this is only a further complication impacting mortality....

He also found that the fish has grossly underdeveloped bones & joints (espicially in the spine), and also underdevelped heart, kidneys, and liver. He sees an immature endocrine system (that is your "glands" - thyroid, adrenals, etc.) He suspected that all this is due to inbreeding and is contributing to the cause of death.

Christmasfish said:
Present were Areonomas hydrophila (sp Ranae). Likely as a secondary infection but not a common agent in a regionally bred animal. Also present in amounts that can be causative is Capillaria pterophylii. Signs in the owners claim of aggressive medication are present, but the titers reflect weaker dosage than would be effecient.
Also present are Coccidiodes...possibly immitis...very unsual in an aquatic animal.

(here words like serum antibody titers and lots of gobbledy gook chem strings vs percentages enter the lil mail up image and two tables)...

He also found the presence of other bacteria (the gobbledy gook are blood tests he did, serum antibodies are indications of previous infections in the fish). He listed some bacteria he found that were unusual, but he don't think that these are primary infections.

As a fish got ill, all kinds of opportunistic infections are involved. Bugs that are normally harmless can have a field day, ending up killing the patient. <See this in ICU all the time. #1 cause of death in multisystem failure is infection - not the underlying disease>

The summary of his findings:

01 Acute renal failure due to: <kidney failure , acute = rapid onset>
A. nephronophthisis likely due to bacterial infection <kidney stones>
B. abnormally constructed organs
a)caudate lobe is not developed on right side
<part of right side kidney is undeveloped>
b)renal cortical necrosis,
<this is the pathological signs of acute kidney failure>

02 Sac in the anterior abdomen shows signs of possible past viral infection based on:
A. complete necrosis of the rete mirabile
B. scarring and acute inflammation of sac epithelium
< The peritoneal sac - lining of the abdomen - shows signs of scaring & dead tissue, maybe from a past infection >


03 secondary infection of areonomas attacking gill structure and labyrinth cavity and epidermal layers

04 secondary infection of Capillaria pterophylii . affecting gill function and also likely causitive agent of "dropsy" symtoms

< 3 & 4 are just listing of secondary bacterial infections.>

05 no evidence of enviromental cause

Christmasfish said:
06 hypoplastic heart.with:..significant hemodynamic alteration and moderate aortic stenosis
A. apparent cardiomeagalyto left ventricle
B occlusive coronary Severe LV hypoplasia. with 70% of right anteriir decent
C concentric atrophy of r vetricle
D complex cardiac anomalies producing cyanosis.
E generalisesd atherosclerosis most likely becase scarring from bacterial agents

This is the most interesting bit of information. This fish has a severe congenital <ie born with it - a genetic defect> complex cyanotic heart anomaly.

Before I talk about this: some biology - blood from the tissues goes back to the heart at right atrium (RA) via veins, from there it goes to the right ventricle (RV) then to the lungs (eh gills in fish), and then back to the heart at the left atrium (LA), then the left ventricle (LV), which pumps it back out to the tissues via arteries.

This fish has LV hypoplasia - that is, the left ventricle is underdeveloped. All the other findings are results of this. The LV is the main pumping chamber of the heart, without it, you die. The reason the fish live is that there are connections between the left & right side of the heart - these connections are present in embryos but should be closed. The abnormal connections are kept open so blood can shunt from the left side of the heart to the right, so the RV can take over the job of LV (which is not there!) I believe the RV should have concentric HYPERtrophy (not atrophy as stated ... there is no such thing as concentric atrophy I know of) because it is doing both the job of RV & LV.

So in this fish, blood from the lungs has to go to the RV to be pumped (there it is mixed with blood from the RA - the blood from the tissue - thus the O2 in blood is decreased - why this is called cyanotic). The mixed blood then goes to both the lungs & the tissues (to the lungs --- er gills! sorry I'm a people doc --- via normal channels, to the tissue via some connections to the left side of the heart - ususally a connection called the ductus arteriosum between the pulmonary artery & the aorta)

As you can imagine, this is an ineffecient arrangement. In people, this is a lethal condition. You have to find a heart transplant within days (weeks if you are lucky) or you have a dead baby. I am amazed that the fish lasted so long.

Anyway, with LV hypoplasia, the fish was doomed to die early, if not from one thing then another. Since this is likely a genetic condition, the fish from this line are not good breeding stock.

Whew! That's it. This vet obviously did a lot of work ... He is to be commended. I hope this clears things up a little. If you have any questions <about the translation that is ... you are obviously a more experience fish-keeper than me! :D > , just ask. I'll see what I can do.
 
Thanks..very interesting..poor, poor fishy..
Holy carp that was some complicatedd reading..not so much trerms as just flow of info I never really thought about or learned. What the heck is this kid doing as a fish doctor!!! 8O (not that I don't love my fishies....)

So I was doing the closest aquatic equivalent to invalid care for the dying!. No wonder he was so weak and unvital. I had him practically wrapped in a warm blanket and on an oxygenator! A fish wheel chair as well. I had him with me constantly when he was at his weakest to prevent the light from going out..he finally had started to swim more normal and patrol the 3 gallon. We had raised the water to a more normal level of 6 inches. I had just decided to chance giving him nutra-cal. It has saved many a sick reptile for me. Too late..it is still sealed in the box since he never made it home :(

He was half the size of other fish here in his age group and slender. Anna was already planning out crossing and back crossing because their weak constitutions but was afraid even her smallest females would shred him fatally. She has only done two breedings up to this point becuase she waits for summer.
It all seems so tragic.. :cry: :cry: :cry:

And you are prolly right on the hypo/hyper/hydro atrophy thing...
it was likely an error on my part since some of the handwriting had some really stenographic spots that I couldn't translate..it isn't short hand..it's missing hand! I just put the word that look that size and filled one, sometimes two vowels in.. ^_^ Just like some numbers look a little wonky (specially to a dyslexic like me where clock face numbers 2/5 adn 7 look alike to me..sometimes 4 too..3, 6, ,8 &9 also look alike on a clock to me. that is why my watch is digital! :roll: so imagine what scratchy writing looks like... )

He is really a keen individual, this kid.... I think he did like Quincy-like work or something with all these "reports" and tests and tech terms...All for a total of 87 bucks I sure got MY nickel worth!

BTW: For me, my largest body of experience was with vital, healthy wild caught specimins and goldfish. I had never seen a sick betta until recent. (I never went to a fish dept before.... I am usually an in &out shopper.)
Now I freak when I see the new versions of fish I once knew well.... :evil: and hence my sig....
 
Wow! I wish I had a fish vet around here!
Aww thats sad tho. But at least he had a good 'betta smart' person taking care of him!

Did you get him from a breeder or did you breed him?

ashley
 
We got him and several others slightly more than a third from a very well known and reputable breeder....but being an opaque that white (his 3+ month old pic is in the gallery) and a half moon too...it was probably more than just his parents that were siblings.
She plans to contact the breeder to let her know...if she cares to, that linebreeding has hit a snag in that line and outcrossing is desperately.
The marbles from her are fine and much larger animals.
 
Admit it Christmas, you are running a fishy hospice! Taking care of fishies in there last days/nursing them back to health.

We have a specialty vets around here too. I have to wonder how many people take advantage of them for their fishies.
 
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