Ammonia in tank before fishless cycle

[eco23]

You'd be surprised how little bacteria is inside the tank compared to the filter media. I've replaced virtually everything inside a tank before (substrate, decor, etc...) and never had a hint of a toxin spike. Other times I've donated pieces of filter media and had mini-cycles. The proportion is WAY off. I wouldn't be too concerned about it. I just wouldn't leave the media out of a filter for more than a few days because we want to keep it aerated and fed ammonia (which might not be a problem, lol).

 

[nanofish]

You'd be surprised how little bacteria is inside the tank compared to the filter media. I've replaced virtually everything inside a tank before (substrate, decor, etc...) and never had a hint of a toxin spike. Other times I've donated pieces of filter media and had mini-cycles. The proportion is WAY off. I wouldn't be too concerned about it. I just wouldn't leave the media out of a filter for more than a few days because we want to keep it aerated and fed ammonia (which might not be a problem, lol).

Very good to know. I thought it was your guide that said don't take a lunchbreak when doing a PWC. Do I need to buy a bubbler for a few days? When I had the tank apart I simply unplugged the filter and then placed the media in a bucket and cleaned the rest when I was ready to run it.

 

[nanofish]

Btw I'm running a Rena XP3. Half of the media is foam and filtration pads, the rest is bio-chem stars. I had all the pads due to the old sand but with this sand being better I could get more bio-chem stars if necessary.

 

[eco23]

I've got a couple things like that in my guide which are basically just an overabundance of caution. For one thing, the end of a cycle is a very delicate time because the bacteria has adjusted exactly to the toxins in the tank. It's a very tedious balance there for a while...and that is one point where making small changes can have a larger impact. I just didn't want people having nervous breakdowns if conversion slowed for a day after they'd been cycling for a month and thought they were done, haha.

The bio-media has the benefit of being a great harbor for the beneficial bacteria, and also lasts for centuries without replacement. It won't make a huge difference of what you're running in there unless obviously we can isolate something as the cause. For example you could leave the canister running with just the bio-media in the tank and throw the filter pads into the bucket. That way we're isolating the filter pads as the potential culprit.

 

[nanofish]

I've got a couple things like that in my guide which are basically just an overabundance of caution. For one thing, the end of a cycle is a very delicate time because the bacteria has adjusted exactly to the toxins in the tank. It's a very tedious balance there for a while...and that is one point where making small changes can have a larger impact. I just didn't want people having nervous breakdowns if conversion slowed for a day after they'd been cycling for a month and thought they were done, haha.

The bio-media has the benefit of being a great harbor for the beneficial bacteria, and also lasts for centuries without replacement. It won't make a huge difference of what you're running in there unless obviously we can isolate something as the cause. For example you could leave the canister running with just the bio-media in the tank and throw the filter pads into the bucket. That way we're isolating the filter pads as the potential culprit.

I understand. I have read your guide a bunch of times, just haven't used it very much for obvious reasons I'm guessing from how fast my NO3 built up that I'm pretty far along in my cycle (still trying to see the good. also why i'm currently thinking of my tank as simply zen art lol).

Should I take both types out or should I just try the filter pads for the moment? I know I said before that I appreciate the help and I mean it. I searched the net a ton of times and never came up with anything like I'm going through.

 

[eco23]

I understand. I have read your guide a bunch of times, just haven't used it very much for obvious reasons I'm guessing from how fast my NO3 built up that I'm pretty far along in my cycle (still trying to see the good. also why i'm currently thinking of my tank as simply zen art lol).

Should I take both types out or should I just try the filter pads for the moment? I know I said before that I appreciate the help and I mean it. I searched the net a ton of times and never came up with anything like I'm going through.

Honestly man, I'm just kinda throwing ideas out here off the top of my head, lol. I'm just as lost as everyone else...but am dying to see what the solution is.

Everything was brand new, right? Nothing was donated, used or came from random sources? My first thought would be to just throw the mechanical filters into the bucket since they'd be what catches organic debris...but it's just a guess.

Here's the positive side- The term "cycled" simply means that there is enough beneficial bacteria that it's capable of supporting the bio-load (ammonia, no2) of a tank. As long as the proportion of bacteria : toxins is in balance...it's "cycled". So although it's struggling with this ungodly amount of ammonia in your tank now...once that is removed and there is a more reasonable amount of ammonia being added...it may be able to handle it instantly. AKA...it might already be cycled.

 

[librarygirl]

I understand. I have read your guide a bunch of times, just haven't used it very much for obvious reasons I'm guessing from how fast my NO3 built up that I'm pretty far along in my cycle (still trying to see the good. also why i'm currently thinking of my tank as simply zen art lol).

Should I take both types out or should I just try the filter pads for the moment? I know I said before that I appreciate the help and I mean it. I searched the net a ton of times and never came up with anything like I'm going through.

I feel you there. During both of my fishless cycles I scoured the internet for answers and found none. Four months later I finally have fish. I doubt yours will take as long (there's a bright side right there! ).

I don't know if it matters whether you separate the types of media, maybe Eco would know better. To be thorough you could, just to test each separately and see what happens to the water they are both in. As Eco said you could toss the filter pads into a bucket and leave the biomedia in the filter on the tank.

 

[nanofish]

Honestly man, I'm just kinda throwing ideas out here off the top of my head, lol. I'm just as lost as everyone else...but am dying to see what the solution is.

Everything was brand new, right? Nothing was donated, used or came from random sources? My first thought would be to just throw the mechanical filters into the bucket since they'd be what catches organic debris...but it's just a guess.

Here's the positive side- The term "cycled" simply means that there is enough beneficial bacteria that it's capable of supporting the bio-load (ammonia, no2) of a tank. As long as the proportion of bacteria : toxins is in balance...it's "cycled". So although it's struggling with this ungodly amount of ammonia in your tank now...once that is removed and there is a more reasonable amount of ammonia being added...it may be able to handle it instantly. AKA...it might already be cycled.

Everything was brand new that I'm using. I had old equipment and tanks but I decided to to go with all new and try different things. I might do like librarygirl suggested and do three buckets if I can find them. You maybe right about the mechanical filters though. I know I had a difficult time trying to get the fine white pads back to white after the old sand seemed to stain them.

 

[nanofish]

I feel you there. During both of my fishless cycles I scoured the internet for answers and found none. Four months later I finally have fish. I doubt yours will take as long (there's a bright side right there! ).

I don't know if it matters whether you separate the types of media, maybe Eco would know better. To be thorough you could, just to test each separately and see what happens to the water they are both in. As Eco said you could toss the filter pads into a bucket and leave the biomedia in the filter on the tank.

4 months?!?! I know I read in another thread that you had a difficult time with your cycle but that's way, way more trouble than I ever imagined. I'm glad you got through it though.

 

[librarygirl]

4 months?!?! I know I read in another thread that you had a difficult time with your cycle but that's way, way more trouble than I ever imagined. I'm glad you got through it though.

Yep, tried cycling two different tanks in the space of over 4 months (5 if you count the month I had fish in the first tank, sadly they all died inexplicably overnight and then I tried fishless cyling for 4 months) but couldn't get the levels to move at all. Its' a long story lol Eco helped me through it with a great idea of his, narrowing down my issue to my tap water. If anyone can help you with your issue he can (no pressure Eco ).

Post your bucket test results when you do them, I'm hanging of the edge of my seat to find out what happens!

 

[davePM]

Yep, tried cycling two different tanks in the space of over 4 months (5 if you count the month I had fish in the first tank, sadly they all died inexplicably overnight and then I tried fishless cyling for 4 months) but couldn't get the levels to move at all. Its' a long story lol Eco helped me through it with a great idea of his, narrowing down my issue to my tap water. If anyone can help you with your issue he can (no pressure Eco ).

Post your bucket test results when you do them, I'm hanging of the edge of my seat to find out what happens!

share that popcorn! I'm intrigued after reading this thread!

 

[nanofish]

No chance to do that big of a water change today. I really can not wait for my boss to be able to work again so I can go back to having some free time.

So I checked my ammonia tonight and the reading looked kind of in between 2.0 and 4.0. I think I should do something about my ph though. The constant high levels always has it too low for a good cycle.

 

[nanofish]

Woohoo!!!! Four straight days with no rise in ammonia!!!

OK so no decrease either but I want to ask about that. Since I put the hood on the tank I haven't seen anymore ammonia spikes and I know four days isn't a lot but it's the most I've gone yet so I'm excited.

As I said last night my ph is low. My test only goes down to 6.0 so it's either that or below. Water right out of my tap (I know you should let it sit but I didn't) was 8.4 when i tested it. If i understand things right the bacteria use the buffers in the water to complete the nitrogen cycle and as that's used the ph drops. Low ph/less buffers and the cycle is slowed. Is it possible that with the high ammonia levels I had they ran through all the buffers and that's why I haven't seen any decrease either even though we know I have a cycle going? Would a really big PWC be enough to bring the ph back up so we can see if things are actually progressing?

 

[eco23]

Woohoo!!!! Four straight days with no rise in ammonia!!!

OK so no decrease either but I want to ask about that. Since I put the hood on the tank I haven't seen anymore ammonia spikes and I know four days isn't a lot but it's the most I've gone yet so I'm excited.

As I said last night my ph is low. My test only goes down to 6.0 so it's either that or below. Water right out of my tap (I know you should let it sit but I didn't) was 8.4 when i tested it. If i understand things right the bacteria use the buffers in the water to complete the nitrogen cycle and as that's used the ph drops. Low ph/less buffers and the cycle is slowed. Is it possible that with the high ammonia levels I had they ran through all the buffers and that's why I haven't seen any decrease either even though we know I have a cycle going? Would a really big PWC be enough to bring the ph back up so we can see if things are actually progressing?

At 6.0 and below there is no conversion,...the nitrogen cycle is not occurring in your aquarium.

I'm onboard with your idea that all the nitrification has used up the alkalinity, causing the pH drop and it shows you've got tons of bacteria. A large pwc is definitely in order. That's why I was saying that if you can find and remove this crazy ammonia source, your tank is probably already cycled.

Here's my concern...I don't know what the limit is, but there is some point where there simply isn't enough surface area / nutrients / alkalinity to support an infinite number of bacteria. That's why if you put a giant fish in a tiny tank...it most likely will never cycle. This is the same thing just on a larger scale. In other words we're asking too much from the bacteria.

Bottom line is we've got to find and remove this ammonia source in order to stock the tank. I just have no freaking clue what it is.

 

[nanofish]

At 6.0 and below there is no conversion,...the nitrogen cycle is not occurring in your aquarium.

I'm onboard with your idea that all the nitrification has used up the alkalinity, causing the pH drop and it shows you've got tons of bacteria. A large pwc is definitely in order. That's why I was saying that if you can find and remove this crazy ammonia source, your tank is probably already cycled.

Here's my concern...I don't know what the limit is, but there is some point where there simply isn't enough surface area / nutrients / alkalinity to support an infinite number of bacteria. That's why if you put a giant fish in a tiny tank...it most likely will never cycle. This is the same thing just on a larger scale. In other words we're asking too much from the bacteria.

Bottom line is we've got to find and remove this ammonia source in order to stock the tank. I just have no freaking clue what it is.

I thought about that as well and it's why I want to continue trying the simple hood on experiment. I don't know that it was the solution but it thus far looks promising.

I'm thinking this because when the ph was higher, the bacteria were obviously converting like crazy to give the NO3 reading that I got. The tank just was unable to convert it all like you said. So I slap a lid on when the ph is too low for the bacteria to do there job. If the bacteria couldn't control the situation before, now that they aren't working the ammonia should be skyrocketing even faster. Not staying stable...unless the ammonia was from something outside that can no long get in. It definitely looks worthy of a few more days testing. Should I just do as large of a water change as I can? Like 90 percent or so?

The one thing I'm certain about at this point is that my stocking will be done extremely slow even if I am absolutely, one hundred percent sure that the crazy ammonia is gone for good. I'd rather play it safe than kill some fish.

 

[eco23]

I thought about that as well and it's why I want to continue trying the simple hood on experiment. I don't know that it was the solution but it thus far looks promising.

I'm thinking this because when the ph was higher, the bacteria were obviously converting like crazy to give the NO3 reading that I got. The tank just was unable to convert it all like you said. So I slap a lid on when the ph is too low for the bacteria to do there job. If the bacteria couldn't control the situation before, now that they aren't working the ammonia should be skyrocketing even faster. Not staying stable...unless the ammonia was from something outside that can no long get in. It definitely looks worthy of a few more days testing. Should I just do as large of a water change as I can? Like 90 percent or so?

The one thing I'm certain about at this point is that my stocking will be done extremely slow even if I am absolutely, one hundred percent sure that the crazy ammonia is gone for good. I'd rather play it safe than kill some fish.

Yeah, the more water you replace the more alkalinity you restore.

It does seem like maybe the ammonia was from an external source...you're absolutely right that the ammonia should be rising again since the nitrification has stopped if you haven't removed the culprit. We'd definitely like to know what the cause is though. I really don't think smoke has anything to do with it. I think I'm getting two threads mixed up (so sorry if I already asked...I think I did), but nobody is spraying the tank down with Windex every day, right?

 

[nanofish]

Yeah, the more water you replace the more alkalinity you restore.

It does seem like maybe the ammonia was from an external source...you're absolutely right that the ammonia should be rising again since the nitrification has stopped if you haven't removed the culprit. We'd definitely like to know what the cause is though. I really don't think smoke has anything to do with it. I think I'm getting two threads mixed up (so sorry if I already asked...I think I did), but nobody is spraying the tank down with Windex every day, right?

Nope no windex. I know you're a lot more experienced than I am but I am leaning towards the smoke. I have smoked around tanks before with no noticeable problems. This is different though and could explain why it caused a problem. The water level was lowered to get more agitation for the bacteria. That gave them more oxygen but it's also conceivable (at least to me) that the increased gas exchange led to more smoke getting into the water than would normally occur. When the tank was empty for a few days it would have also been easy enough for smoke to coat the inside walls explaining the massive, massive spike that happened right after I refilled it completely with fresh water.

Given that on somedays I smoke nearly at pack a day at home you probably won't be able to change my mind about it totally. It's going to be my reason to try and quit

 

[eco23]

Nope no windex. I know you're a lot more experienced than I am but I am leaning towards the smoke. I have smoked around tanks before with no noticeable problems. This is different though and could explain why it caused a problem. The water level was lowered to get more agitation for the bacteria. That gave them more oxygen but it's also conceivable (at least to me) that the increased gas exchange led to more smoke getting into the water than would normally occur. When the tank was empty for a few days it would have also been easy enough for smoke to coat the inside walls explaining the massive, massive spike that happened right after I refilled it completely with fresh water.

Given that on somedays I smoke nearly at pack a day at home you probably won't be able to change my mind about it totally. It's going to be my reason to try and quit

Hey, I'm open for any ideas, and if we can get it solved I'll believe anything. I'm sure if you were emptying actual tobacco into the tank (obviously you're not) it could decay and leech ammonia...I just can't envision smoke being the cause. Oh well, let us know how it goes

 

[nanofish]

Hey, I'm open for any ideas, and if we can get it solved I'll believe anything. I'm sure if you were emptying actual tobacco into the tank (obviously you're not) it could decay and leech ammonia...I just can't envision smoke being the cause. Oh well, let us know how it goes

There is a years old thread on this forum where someone asked if cigarettes could hurt fish. Someone listed ammonia (sorry I can't remember who off the top of my head to credit them) as being one of the components. If you're interested I can try to find it again. Just warning you that most of the posts were "you should quit" as opposed to an actual discussion.

I did a massive water change tonight. The ph is now 8.4, ammonia is 1.0, NO2 is .25, and I'm about to test the NO3. Fingers crossed that tomorrow there's not another spike.

 

[eco23]

Just PLEASE tell me you didn't get that info from Yahoo Answers (I did a quick search). That site is good strictly for entertainment purposes only. If ammo is going down that's great, maybe we'll never know the source, and if it's good enough for you I'm happy with it...I just don't see it. 8ppm in 30 hours from cigarette smoke? I'll put money on the table for that experiment. I'm leaning towards whatever decaying organic source was contributing to it is pretty much decomposing (thanks to a different type of beneficial bacteria ).