Ammonia Levels Won't Drop

[trennamw]

Honestly, I struggle with this logic. Even a heavily overstocked tank shouldn't produce 4ppm of ammonia per 24 hour period. 2ppm should be more than enough for virtually any situation. If someone has data to the contrary I would love to see it. For example, I currently have 10 4-5" Satanoperca in an uncycled 20g tank and they are producing less than 1ppm per 24 hours. That is a pretty grossly overstocked scenario.

Yeah I think you're right as far as 4ppm being too high. That's why I said that some people think 4ppm is the right spot for full stocking right away.

My main point is that there's no reason to say small tanks should have fewer ppm than bigger tanks.

I'd be great if someone could discover which ppm level is adequate. Your noting 1ppm in an overstocked tank sure is helpful.

All bottled bacteria is different, some are more effective than others. When you are referring to crashes are you thinking of Stability? The big problem with bottled bacteria is how it is handled. Unless you can be sure it was handled appropriately you often end up with a bottle of uselessness.

Right. Just like probiotics for people at the vitamin store.

Mostly I was referring to something I read recently that most bottled bacteria isn't the strain of nitrifying bacteria that tends to naturally establish in aquariums. Dr Tims does, I hear, but that could be a rumor.

I've personally experienced and heard of crashes from both API products mentioned.

Just out of curiousity, why do you think fish need added slime coat? Have you had fish that had issues do to an insufficient slime coat? My personal feeling is that the slime coat additives are more about product marketing than anything else. My South American tanks never get dechlorinator or any slime coat additive and I have not noticed any difference in the slime coat of the fish involved.

I use a slime coat product because, in a small betta tank, daily water changes with dechlorinator and perfect parameters resulted in fin rot that stopped happening with API Stress Coat. I was told that all the water changing was goofing up its slime coat.

Now it could very well be a bunch of bunk, which is part of why I go with the Stress Coat dechlorinator: adding synthetic polymers if the slime coat isn't an issue just adds more dumb crud to the water. But if it's aloe ... Well that's either harmless because there's not enough to have any effect, or beneficial in other ways because aloe is a demulcent and a source of salicylic acid. The most interesting health research these days is that inflammation is at the heart of many illnesses, so there again ... It's doing either nothing because it's a marketing gag, or it's doing good.

Barring, of course, salicylate allergies in the fish ... Or asthma ... Lol.

Almost none of this fish stuff is proven by anyone. I think your typical recommendation to shoot for 2ppm in cycling is good, but that's just based on my experience and my gut feeling that you give good advice.

And I think most of the stuff sold to people to put in their tanks is, like most of the stuff sold to humans to put in our bodies, is garbage.

But you wouldn't recommend that if 2ppm is what you do to cycle a 55 gallon, .5 ppm will fully cycle a 10 gallon, right?

Why do you not use a dechlorinator? That's interesting.




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[dalto]

Mostly I was referring to something I read recently that most bottled bacteria isn't the strain of nitrifying bacteria that tends to naturally establish in aquariums. Dr Tims does, I hear, but that could be a rumor.

Even what the right bacteria are is somewhat controversial. Nitrobacter and nitrosomonas (those may be spelled wrong) are widely considered to be the "right" bacteria in aquaria. This is what is in Dr Tims and several other products. I recently read a study that found that there was little to no Nitrobacter found in established freshwater aquaria which I found very interesting.

I use a slime coat product because, in a small betta tank, daily water changes with dechlorinator and perfect parameters resulted in fin rot that stopped happening with API Stress Coat. I was told that all the water changing was goofing up its slime coat.

Interesting.

But you wouldn't recommend that if 2ppm is what you do to cycle a 55 gallon, .5 ppm will fully cycle a 10 gallon, right?

I fully agree that the amount should not change for different tank sizes since ppm is a measure of concentration. I must have missed the post were someone suggested that.

Why do you not use a dechlorinator? That's interesting.

I don't use dechlor in my SA tanks since I have hard water where I am and all the water that is in those tanks goes through an RODI unit which removes pretty much everything from the water including chlorine/chloramines.

 

[trennamw]

That's really interesting about the bacteria. I have been learning about fermenting foods and wonder whether, like sourdough bread starter, aquarium bacteria vary a lot by region. It'd be interesting to see whether the "what's in the aquarium" study was confined to one geographical area.

(Hope we ended up answering the OP's question ... The threads around here are always at risk of running off into either tantrums or geeking out ...)


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[dalto]

That's really interesting about the bacteria. I have been learning about fermenting foods and wonder whether, like sourdough bread starter, aquarium bacteria vary a lot by region. It'd be interesting to see whether the "what's in the aquarium" study was confined to one geographical area.

PLOS ONE: Aquarium Nitrification Revisited: Thaumarchaeota Are the Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Freshwater Aquarium Biofilters

 

[trennamw]

PLOS ONE: Aquarium Nitrification Revisited: Thaumarchaeota Are the Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Freshwater Aquarium Biofilters

That's really interesting. A quick glance gave me the impression that they found different bacteria prefer different concentrations of ammonia. If I'm reading that correctly, maybe that's part of the filter crash issue ... If the initial colony was mostly the one that loves super high ammonia levels, they may die off after the aquarium gets going. Could explain varying success with bottled bacteria too.

And it would underscore your belief that 2ppm is better than 4ppm.


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[Masha]

Even what the right bacteria are is somewhat controversial. Nitrobacter and nitrosomonas (those may be spelled wrong) are widely considered to be the "right" bacteria in aquaria. This is what is in Dr Tims and several other products. I recently read a study that found that there was little to no Nitrobacter found in established freshwater aquaria which I found very interesting.
.

From what I've read, they no longer think that nitrobacter is the bacteria involved in the aquarium nitrogen cycle, but have found that nitrospora is responsible for the nitrite > nitrate phase.

I can dig out the articles about this if you are interested.

I've also read that the thing about bottled bacteria is that it can be heterotrophic or autotrophic. The kind that usually occurs in an aquarium when the cycle is built from scratch, is autotrophic. The kind that's in many bottled products is heterotrophic, and that this kind needs to be replenished, that is, you need to keep adding it, and that it can interfere with the autotrophic kind.

Heterotrophic bacteria is easier to bottle as they can survive drying out, where autotrophic bacteria is harder to bottle and sell.

Now I might very well be completely wrong about all this, it's the impression I've picked up from reading a number of articles, but I'm easily confused

 

[Red_Ribbons]

This has all been so interesting! Thank you for all the thoughts. I read about dosing tanks with lower concentrations of ammonia but the general impression seemed to be that 4ppm would produce a healthy amount of bacteria to deal with all stocking eventualities. As I originally planned to put a gold fish in there (and knew they produced a high amount of waste) I just dosed it to 4ppm.
If I could use a lower dose for shrimp let me know! (Just to stop anyone worrying- there are NO gold fish going in this tank now I understand it's limitations)

Since adding the API Stress Zyme+ there are Nitrates in the tank (40ppm) but no Nitrites. There seem to be other people who have used similar products and missed out Nitrites before getting Nitrates so I don't think I would do that again.

My tank is still at 4ppm with 40ppm Nitrites and 0ppm Nitrates. No ammonia has been added since the initial dose (18th of September). However.... There is a hornwort plant in there (which was put in when the tank was orginally set up) and it does produce some dead matter. This could possibly be what's keeping the ammonia level constant? I didn't want to rinse out the filter medium for fear of destroying any bacteria colonies that might be trying to grow but maybe I should just carefully remove the dead plant matter and possibly do a pwc to dilute the Nitrates...?

The above ideas have all come form my own warped little mind which knows nothing about fish. If they are wrong please do correct me!!!!
Apologies for the long post.

 

[dalto]

This has all been so interesting! Thank you for all the thoughts. I read about dosing tanks with lower concentrations of ammonia but the general impression seemed to be that 4ppm would produce a healthy amount of bacteria to deal with all stocking eventualities. As I originally planned to put a gold fish in there (and knew they produced a high amount of waste) I just dosed it to 4ppm.
If I could use a lower dose for shrimp let me know! (Just to stop anyone worrying- there are NO gold fish going in this tank now I understand it's limitations)

You can dose it to a lower level, 2ppm should be plenty.

Since adding the API Stress Zyme+ there are Nitrates in the tank (40ppm) but no Nitrites. There seem to be other people who have used similar products and missed out Nitrites before getting Nitrates so I don't think I would do that again.

In less you have been dosing some fertilizers I don't think you really have 40ppm nitrates. This is probably a bad reading from your kit. The reason is that it would take a lot of ammonia being consumed to generate 40ppm of nitrates. While it is true you won't always have a nitrite spike, especially in systems that the cycle happens slowly, you would still see ammonia dropping in that case.

My tank is still at 4ppm with 40ppm Nitrites and 0ppm Nitrates. No ammonia has been added since the initial dose (18th of September). However.... There is a hornwort plant in there (which was put in when the tank was orginally set up) and it does produce some dead matter. This could possibly be what's keeping the ammonia level constant? I didn't want to rinse out the filter medium for fear of destroying any bacteria colonies that might be trying to grow but maybe I should just carefully remove the dead plant matter and possibly do a pwc to dilute the Nitrates...?

Decaying plant should not be producing the level of ammonia it would take to maintain a steady 4ppm unless there was a *lot* of it which is not likely. Given where you are at and how long you have been at it I would try a 50% water change. It really doesn't look like your tank is cycling to me. I would also clean up the decaying plant matter or even temporarily remove the plants. More variables only make things confusing when trying to solve a problem like this.