Apisto mysteries

[MartyMA]

Tank is a 40g breeder
Ph is about 7.4
Ammonia/nitrite are 0
Nitrate falls between 20 and 40
Bottom feeders are 2 juvenile clown loaches (list the 3rd some time ago).
Filter is a Marineland c-360
It's a planted tank. Was thick at the time of mystery 1. Not as thick now.
Only other tank mates are 1 young angel, some danios and mollys. I have several otos and some SAEs, too.

I have panduros and have kept other dwarf SA cichlids in the past. Even though small, they are quarrelsome. I would keep only one kind together myself but with enough space, you should be able to manage. If you sit and observe them interacting, it is easy to see how they are going to sort themselves out. You did not mention your water hardness. You might want to test gH and kH hardness. Most of the dwarfs prefer fairly soft water acidic water. Your pH is okay but closer to 7.0 and lower would be better. You might want to rearrange your tank to create distinct areas and break up sight lines at the same time. Rethink the rock decorations by replacing with driftwood. More natural and will help get your water closer to neutral. This is just my opinions, not a rules.

So, what happened? A male panduro started to do what he likes to do...beat up everyone else. Your other fish cleaned up after.

 

[CatoeSc]

I have panduros and have kept other dwarf SA cichlids in the past. Even though small, they are quarrelsome. I would keep only one kind together myself but with enough space, you should be able to manage. If you sit and observe them interacting, it is easy to see how they are going to sort themselves out. You did not mention your water hardness. You might want to test gH and kH hardness. Most of the dwarfs prefer fairly soft water acidic water. Your pH is okay but closer to 7.0 and lower would be better. You might want to rearrange your tank to create distinct areas and break up sight lines at the same time. Rethink the rock decorations by replacing with driftwood. More natural and will help get your water closer to neutral. This is just my opinions, not a rules.

So, what happened? A male panduro started to do what he likes to do...beat up everyone else. Your other fish cleaned up after.

I did see the male Panduro initiate some aggressive behavior, but it did not appear to be lethal... At least not what I saw. Do you think I could get away with rams more easily since they are a bit different in size/ body shape?

I have more rock than I think you can see in the pics, and am trying to find ways to get more cover. Generally, the plants are pretty thick, too.

KH is 143 and the Gh is 6. I am slowly bringing the numbers down. I have switched from bad RO water to good RO water. This is a story unto itself, but in the short version is improved water that starts at 6.2 ph. Water changes have pulled me down very slowly from 7.6 to 7.4. This has taken about 6 weeks. I can only assume the tank, substrate, rocks, etc. are so saturated that they are slowing down the change in ph. I'm okay with this, though. I don't want it to happen too fast. Long term, I hope to see it land around 6.6 to 6.8.

I think the panduro is the culprit when it comes to the death of the redneck... He wasn't there for the caucatuoid situation, though.

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

Mystery 1: Had what I believed to be 2 male Cacatouides and 1 female Cacatouides. These 3 fish vanished without a trace. No sign of them in the tank or filter. Even moved everything in the tank around to find remains... Nothing! Poof... Like they were never there. To make matters worse, I tragically killed an angel when I inadvertently dropped a rock on it while searching!

Mystery 2: after some time passed, I bought 2 new pairs of Apistos. 1 pair of rednecks and one pair of panduros. Tonight, I found one of the rednecks dead, but not just dead... Brutally dead. 2 big hunks of filet and an eye missing! It had to have been the panduro male. He's a good bit larger and has a bigger mouth. The only other thing it could be is the last remaining angel, but that doesn't make sense. I'm a little P.O.d here. These little guys are pricey. Isn't this generally the kind of things that happen with their bigger cousins?

Hey there CatoeSc,

I've kept and continue to keep Apistos.

In situation 1: if you believe you had 2 males (which often happens as subdominant males tend to display female coloration to avoid being picked on), the most likely case is death from stress and then cleaned up by your other fish. I've seen trios of Apistos have problems even with 2 females, as the female that the male not chosen to breed with will be harassed by both the male and female. Your tank seems to have enough room for a stressed Apisto to get away from the others, but it's something to consider.

In situation 2: likely more of the same. Your tank, although large, is pretty open and does not have a lot of natural separation. This can cause issues with having 2 different pairs. One will become more dominant than the other, and proceed to chase the subdominant until death. The marks you saw on the dead Apisto were most likely post-mortem.

It is pretty common among Apistos for this to happen. That is why a "confirmed pair" always carries a high price tag. Not only is it known that they can breed, but they have a lower likelihood of killing each other! Many people keep dwarf Cichlids like Apistos because they are small, with big personalities.

I feel your pain though, as Apistos almost always carry a generally high price tag. I would hate it if I lost my Tefe Pearl Blues!

Best of luck for the future.

 

[Freakgecko91]

Apistogramma cacatuoides is known to be a harem breeder...Not all apistos are this way, but agassizi tefe pearl blue is known to be a pair breeder...

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

Apistogramma cacatuoides is known to be a harem breeder...Not all apistos are this way, but agassizi tefe pearl blue is known to be a pair breeder...

It's been my experience that Apistogramma do better in trios than in pairs. Male aggression is best when spread upon multiple fish (dither fish) and/or multiple females. This also ups the chance that a breeding pair can be made. Most Apistos (including agassizii), if given the opportunity, will become polygamous.

 

[Borderlesscott]

FYI, through my experiences with panduro have shown them to have a lot of attitude and are highly territorial towards other apistos. It probably is the culprit for the viejita.

Totally agree, had to move my Panduro pair out of my 63 g for constantly pestering a Firemouth, ended up in 20 g with Tetra as company, anything else they killed - 2 Kuhli's, and 3 Pygmy Cory's all got mauled, no more bottom dwellers for this tank. If they weren't such a stunning pair I would have rehomed them. My female Super Red has a bit of an attitude also, but seems to stop at chasing. Personally I don't do bottom dwellers with Apistos anymore as it doesn't seem to work in my case.

 

[CatoeSc]

I wanted to show you what I believe to be a panduro. Correct me if in wrong...

 

[Freakgecko91]

Can you get a better pic of the side?

 

[CatoeSc]

Can you get a better pic of the wide

The wide?

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

The wide?

Side.

It, at least in my opinion, looks more agassizii to me. It doesn't have the signature orange ring on the tail like most panduros. It closely resembles my tefe pearl blues to be honest. Although the coloration isn't all there to be a tefe

 

[Freakgecko91]

Stupid auto correct


And I agree, agassizi, not panduro. But a side pic would definitely help confirm thay

 

[CatoeSc]

Okay. Here are a few pics. Prolly overkill. I don't think they are agassizis, but I'm not committed to panduro. I couldn't get a pic of her, but I figured his coloring would help more anyway.

The last 3 pics- 2 are pics of the remaining redneck and the final is a pic of one if my otos with a different pattern-kinda cool to me.

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

I'm sticking to my guns. Looks like a agassizii.

 

[CatoeSc]

I'm sticking to my guns. Looks like a agassizii.

Well, my guess is you guys would know better than me. It would be pretty much a waste of time for me to ask your opinion, then say your wrong. I thought the agassizis tail was more pointed, though. It's kinda hard to tell, but his tail is a bit more round.

Just so you know where I got the info that led me to believe its a panduro, see this link:
http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_panduro.php

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

Well, my guess is you guys would know better than me. It would be pretty much a waste of time for me to ask your opinion, then say your wrong. I thought the agassizis tail was more pointed, though. It's kinda hard to tell, but his tail is a bit more round.

Just so you know where I got the info that led me to believe its a panduro, see this link:
http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_panduro.php

You do bring up a good point on the tail. How long have you had him?

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

You do bring up a good point on the tail. How long have you had him?

Actually. On second look, the 5th picture is a pretty good example of the agasizzii's spadetail. Lucky you tho! He looks to be pretty close to a tefe pearl blue

 

[CatoeSc]

Actually. On second look, the 5th picture is a pretty good example of the agasizzii's spadetail. Lucky you tho! He looks to be pretty close to a tefe pearl blue

Based on your feedback, I looked up the tefe pearl blue. I think you may be right. The tail is pretty rounded, but the colors and patterns make it pretty hard to argue otherwise.

Got them last weekend and in a very short time, he has really colored up nicely. I bought him expecting him to look better in his own tank, and he does. I can't wait to see him after a couple of more weeks.

Back to the original question, though. Do these guys get very aggressive?

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

Based on your feedback, I looked up the tefe pearl blue. I think you may be right. The tail is pretty rounded, but the colors and patterns make it pretty hard to argue otherwise.

Got them last weekend and in a very short time, he has really colored up nicely. I bought him expecting him to look better in his own tank, and he does. I can't wait to see him after a couple of more weeks.

Back to the original question, though. Do these guys get very aggressive?

I've never had any out of the norm aggression issues with agassizii, including the tefe pearl blues I have currently (although they are still quite young so that can still come with age). But norm for them is still territorial aggression, and if that guy had decided the whole tank was his territory, he would do anything to defend it (be is tail slapping, harassing, and chasing).

 

[Freakgecko91]

10000% percent sure its not a panduro or nijessini (spelling may be off). Definitely looks like a agassizi based off the patter alone, and it does indeed have a spade-shaped tail

 

[Borderlesscott]

Not Panduro, this is my pair for comparison.