Balanced Aquariums (by request)

[ashleynicole]

And another thing..

English is not my first language. If I can type all that with minimal mistakes, I dare you to do the same.

Typing you instead of "u" has nothing to do with English being a first language or not. Just my 2 cents.

 

[GhillieSniper115]

Wow, am I late to this party or what?

I was going to try to respond with some sort of a well put together statement, but instead, I'm just going to point out what is wrong with some of the things you said.

Guess what happens to the waste that the frog eats? It's digested and excreted into the water column as waste and ammonia. What would otherwise happen to the leaf? It gets broken down by bacteria etc and transformed into waste and ammonia. Nothing gain other than adding another bioload to your system.

Diana Walstad has a degree in microbiology and has spent years doing actual research in aquaria. She also wrote the book on planted tank ecology (called "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", actually). She currently serves as a technical adviser to the ADA.

Totally, completely untrue. Plants are constantly using oxygen (else you wouldn't see plants grow or move during the day), but during the day photosynthesis trumps respiration. Since there is no photosynthesis at night, respiration takes over.

BUT

If you can manage to gas your fish with CO2 w/o injecting CO2 (either pressurized, or DIY for that matter), that would be a feat for the ages. There is no real threat to leaving the lights on other than algae.

The "Dark Reaction" is a bit of a misnomer. It simply does not need light, rather than needing dark.

Only if you have the light to drive it. Plants only take up enough nutrients to satisfy that drive. One plant in a tank gets the same amount of light as several (assuming shading isn't a significant factor, which it usually isn't), therefor will grow the same amount. Mere presence of nutrients is not enough for faster growth. They're autotrophs, not heterotrophs. If your plants are at their nutrient capacity, you're already running into other issues.

What, on the fish ? On the plants? Bacteria develop in aquariums because their is an excess of ammonia. Excesses of ammonia is bad. Every time. Period. It's like smoking. People smoke, but it takes years for them to develop symptoms. Ammonia is worse for fish than smoke is for humans, and it will damage their gils. Allowing fish to 'adapt' to this environment is like letting a human adapt to starvation or dehydration. Sure, you body will eventually accommodate to some extent, but really?

You would be better off adding plants ammonia first and letting your bacteria grow, because those little buggers grow SLOW. THEN add plants, and allow them to acclimate and start sucking your nutrients, and THEN add fish. Wait, doesn't that process sound familiar.....

This statement, more than anything else, discredits you. Fish in cycling is for amateurs and the uninitiated. Fishless cycling is the advanced technique for anyone serious about the hobby.

And finally:

Don't be hating on wiki. It's more accurate than most people give it credit, and has a team dedicated to keeping it accurate.

Fish can adapt. Didn't you take biology? Also I don't know why everyone is asking what are you cyclying? You cycle the tank obviously. And I can tell you plenty of false info that I got from wiki

 

[GhillieSniper115]

I agree with everything except this-

Pretty much everyone I know that owns lots of tanks or has a fishroom or whatever does fish-in cycling with media transfer. It takes pretty much the same level of commitment to stay on top of a safe fish-in cycle as it does to do a fishless one, at least for those who are testing and logging daily etc, doesn't really apply to the raw shrimp method.

The vast majority of people that I see doing fishless cycles are new to the hobby, or at least new to taking it seriously.

@mumma i am pretty sure its available via e-book.

Thank you

 

[GhillieSniper115]

+1,000,000 to aqua-chem!

Was thinking of getting my plant physiology books out but was waiting to see how this ends up.

Now for my 10 cents...

I'm sure this setup CAN work with carefull planning and execution. BUT 99% of the people on here do not have a degree in botany, microbiology or aquaculture. So very few have the knowledge to attempt this even though we have the skills. I'm not trying to offend anybody, I'm just stating a 'fact'. To suggest an advanced setup like this to beginners to the hobby can be fatal.

Then, the term 'Natural Aquarium' is a complete contradiction. Those little finned creatures we keep in our waterfilled glass containers have evolved somewhere in the world to suit a specific environment. A process that took 100's and 1000's of years. What we as aquarists trying to do is to simulate that environment in order to enjoy this beautiful piece of nature we can put in our homes. We can never replicate the environment, but with technology we can make things a lot easier for ourselves and the organisms we intend to enjoy. This includes filters, heater, chemicals, even forums like this makes a huge difference to the hobby.

I'm not disputing your method. But, this has to be laid out more carefully. There is a lot of beginners reading this that might try it. And in 2 weeks they'll have 20 tetras in a 30 gal tank upside down wondering why.

Hope all this makes sense.

I know that's why I clearly said not to try this unless you are expeirienced and have a good understanding of the biology behind it.

 

[GhillieSniper115]

And another thing..

English is not my first language. If I can type all that with minimal mistakes, I dare you to do the same.

I can't realy help it my iPhone does auto correct on some words and then it doesn't correct the words that should be

 

[davePM]

I can't realy help it my iPhone does auto correct on some words and then it doesn't correct the words that should be

It only takes a few extra seconds to proof read what has been typed. I always post from my iPhone and have no such problems.

 

[Uncle Dirty]

It only takes a few extra seconds to proof read what has been typed. I always post from my iPhone and have no such problems.

Ditto!...........

 

[NoMoreGoldFish]

All this effort and forcing your fish to "adapt" to less adequate conditions just to avoid buying a filter and spending a few bucks on fish pellets? You can't be serious.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Fish can adapt. Didn't you take biology? Also I don't know why everyone is asking what are you cyclying? You cycle the tank obviously. And I can tell you plenty of false info that I got from wiki

Yet another comment that clearly shows you don't truly understand the processes you are describing. Do fish adapt? Yes they do. However adapting takes hundreds, maybe thousands of years and occurs over multiple generations. It does not happen overnight or even over a couple of weeks in an aquarium. This type of thinking (i.e. the stretching of a giraffes neck in order to reach the leaves in the tall trees) is called Lamarkism, and was disproven many, many years ago.

 

[Matt68005]

i have to agree with this post. nothing better than a planted tank with Some ELB's or Wild Guppies!!

 

[davePM]

i have to agree with this post. nothing better than a planted tank with Some ELB's or Wild Guppies!!

While that might be true, there are better ways of achieving it.

 

[ShadoeFox]

To clear up some things:

1. You would cycle the fish and plants at the same time

2. Elodea plants are used and even if you just ad one, it will grow over an inch a day and is a vary hardy plant and removes alot of toxins from the water.

3. The fish used most commonly in this set up are mosquito fish and common guppies. They are extremely hardy fish and can withstand the ammonia during cycling. They also don't excrete alot of waste. You only feed the fish once or twice a week, and it's in small amounts. You can start out with a ratio of 1:2 male female ratio

Okay, I think I'm understanding the concept, at least, better now.

 

[Rokuzachi]

I'm still waiting to be convinced. At this point all I'm seeing are large, info filled posts about all the reasons this is a bad idea and very little in the way of countering them.I understand the premise but my experience tells me no.

 

[BillD]

Interesting topic, and one that has been around since people started keeping fish. All the old aquaria books talked about the "balanced aquaria" and in that regard nothing has changed other than we use equipment to make that happen.
there are a few statements in this thread that aren't true. One being that all natural systems have flow through them. ponds often don't and areas that have populations of annual killies often don't. Lake Tanganika has water flowing in but not out.
For something that may actually be grenain to this discussion, I have a pail in the basement that has 4 variatus platies in it. They came to be in the pail when they were siphoned as fry during a water change. I siphon to a pail rather than the drain for this purpose. There was also a large wad of alge and some Java moss that was covered with algae that came from a shrimp tank. This occurred back in April and the 4 fry have been in the pail since then, without heat or filtarion. The only water changes were when I siphoned old water out of the shrimp tank into the pail and allowed it to over flow. The pail has never been siphoned. the water from the shrimp tank would have contained some seed shrimp and possibly daphnia. the fish have bben fe fish food perhaps 6 or 8 times, and those water changes number probably 4 or 5. The pail was on the floor so during peak air conditioning season the temp would be mid 60s.The fish are now about 1" long. I had meant to move them to a tank months ago but was concerned they would be eaten with the stock in that tank.
They are still there because a thread in another forum somewhat like this prompted me to leave them and see what happens. Most of the algae is gone since the pail isn't lit. I can only surmise it has reached some measure of equilibrium since it has been a least a month or more since any water has been added, and the fish seem to be doing fine although they probably would have grown larger and more quickly in a regular tank with regular feedings. So, while this was not a purposeful set up, with no intent to leave it, it does seem to be working, for what it's worth.

 

[Wy Renegade]

there are a few statements in this thread that aren't true. One being that all natural systems have flow through them. ponds often don't and areas that have populations of annual killies often don't. Lake Tanganika has water flowing in but not out.

Had to go back and check my post before I responded to this ~ I'm assuming that your statement is directed at one of my posts? My post said that "all natural systems have flow", not that they have flow through them. There is a significant difference in those two statements.

Even though Lake Tanganika may have water flowing in but not out, it still has flow within the lake. Even many ponds, while they may not have flow through, still have flow within them. This flow is generated by wind. I find it very hard to believe that any natural system has absotely no flow, but I'm unfamiliar with areas that have populations of annual killies, so perhaps I'm incorrect.

*** Edit ***
Your comment prompted a little more research on my part. Little curious as to your comment on Lake Tanganika not have water flowing out and what its based on? According to the Encyclopedia of New World Knowledge;

The enormous depth and tropical location of the lake prevent "turnover" of water masses, which means that much of the lower depths of the lake are so-called fossil water and are anoxic (lacking oxygen). The catchment area of the lake covers 231,000 km², with two main rivers flowing into the lake, numerous smaller rivers and streams (due to the steep mountains that keep drainage areas small), and one major outflow, the Lukuga River, which empties into the Congo River drainage

Please explain how if it has a major outflow in the form of the Lukuga River, it has no water flowing out?

 

[ashleynicole]

Just because a fish is "hardy" and can withstand ammonia and Nitrite doesn't mean you aren't hurting the fish. Ammonia and Nitrite burns and causes scar tissue and permanent damage.

Even lakes that don't have visible outflow through a river or underground, water still gets slowly absorbed in the soil and passes through many underground tributaries and aquafers. Many connect to and flow through the aquafer as well. These are huge ecosystems with many factors, and could hardly be compares to the amount of waist buildup in a 20 gallon fish tank.

 

[adeebm]

Most natural systems have some sort of flow. The only exceptions I can think of would be stagnant ponds, bogs, swamps and the likes. Also desert pools such as where triops come from. But most of the species available to the hobby will be adapted to systems with flow, and guppies are certainly one of them. Wind, temperature/pressure systems, and the moon's gravity will cause flow in most water bodies.

--Adeeb

 

[meegosh]

1 fishless cycling is usually for beginners

2 u need to cycle with fish and plants so the nitrogen fixing bacteria can establish themselves

While I agree most people starting in the hobby should do fishless cycling, I have disagree that it is just for beginners. Why wouldn't someone want to do a fishless cycle? It doesn't submit your fish to high ammonia and nitrite levels which have been proven to shorten the life of the stock.

Your second point, "u need to cylce with fish and plants so the bacteria can establish themselves," I have to completely disagree with. We all know that fishless cycling, which is a humane way of cycling, can establish the needed bacteria colonies - and at a much faster rate than a traditional, fish-in cycle.

I think you feel like you need to defend this idea, but honestly, it is not worth defending. Sure it might be possible with a small bioload and BOATLOAD of plants, but it sure isn't practical, nor is it worth the hassle.

 

[BillD]

As far as fishless cycling goes, I know many veteran fish keepers, some with a really large number of tanks, and none of them do a fishless cycle. Time is one of the reasons. There have been many occasions where I have come home from a club meeting with a bag of fish I had no intention of buying, and have to set up a a tank for them. Sometimes I have cycled media, sometimes I don't. If you read Stan Shubel's article on guppy disease, he starts with a sterile environment with new setups, after losing a large number of tanks to the disease. This is my preferance, too.
I will have to refresh on the Rift Lakes. Still there is a large portion of that lake that sees no water movement, as well as no turnover, so the bottom of the lake is dead.

 

[Wy Renegade]

I will have to refresh on the Rift Lakes. Still there is a large portion of that lake that sees no water movement, as well as no turnover, so the bottom of the lake is dead.

You are correct on the turnover part. As for the dead part, I'm afraid that I'd have to argue that with you as well. I'd be willing to bet that research would show there are tons of anaerobic bacteria thriving within that "dead zone."

Also keep in mind that while there maybe little to no regular turnover that doesn't necessarily mean there is no water movement. People made that same mistake with Lake Baikal. We assumed that because there was no turnover we could dump whatever we wanted into the bottom of the lake and it wouldn't be an issue, because without turnover all those pollutants would be trapped down there, and have no inpact on the lake itself or the organisms in it. Time has obviously show that we were wrong.

In truth, water molecules themselves are in constant motion, regardless of large scale turnover, even in your water pail, the bottom of the lake, or the original proposed aquarium in this thread, there is some movement.