Bert's 60g Planted Tank

[Bert2oo1]

Bert what's your micro regime before you just increased it and how many times have you dosed?

I've been dosing 0.5g and I've dosed it 4 times now, last dose was 0.6g (recommended)

 

[Caliban07]

I've been dosing 0.5g and I've dosed it 4 times now, last dose was 0.6g (recommended)

What's the dosage ppm wise in total?

I think it's tox mate same thing happening to me. I'll explain more later.

 

[Bert2oo1]

What's the dosage ppm wise in total?

I think it's tox mate same thing happening to me. I'll explain more later.

Took a picture of what I'm dosing, been dosing this 3 times per week:
http://pho.to/AbOE7

 

[Caliban07]

Everything was going fine for me for about 1 week then things just got progressively worse just like the first time I was doing EI macros and micros.

Then I started getting the white chlorosis appearing again on ALL my plants.

First thing I noticed was growth slowed down then just stopped. BBA started again and then this.









I'm done with the micros. Been talking to one of the guys who brought this all to light.



The problem is that they accumulate. Apparently my dose is beyond excessive. I feel like it's too much of a coincidence Bert. Similar water, same dosing, same symptoms.

Even the stems on the Monte Carlo went white in places and I lost a shrimp (might not be related)

I've done three large water changes but the BBA has already started getting bad.

 

[flchamp89]

Your saying you believe its excessive micros? Which ones?

 

[Caliban07]

Your saying you believe its excessive micros? Which ones?

That's what I believe at present yes. I'm not sure which or if it's more than one. I've been seeing odd livestock behaviour also. Cherry shrimp are hidden, ottos congregate don't move much with lights on. Harlequins just treading water. Lots my last cardinal too. I'm seeing too many signs over and over again. I let Barr threads convince me it was ok and went all out again.

 

[flchamp89]

That's what I believe at present yes. I'm not sure which or if it's more than one. I've been seeing odd livestock behaviour also. Cherry shrimp are hidden, ottos congregate don't move much with lights on. Harlequins just treading water. Lots my last cardinal too. I'm seeing too many signs over and over again. I let Barr threads convince me it was ok and went all out again.

Was just reading Barr stuff on this lol. My helferi did that same thing. I think you and I talked about it. Im so curious to see the next week or two and any other changes you do.

 

[Bert2oo1]

Everything was going fine for me for about 1 week then things just got progressively worse just like the first time I was doing EI macros and micros.

Then I started getting the white chlorosis appearing again on ALL my plants.

First thing I noticed was growth slowed down then just stopped. BBA started again and then this.

View attachment 294065

View attachment 294066

View attachment 294067

View attachment 294068

I'm done with the micros. Been talking to one of the guys who brought this all to light.

View attachment 294069

The problem is that they accumulate. Apparently my dose is beyond excessive. I feel like it's too much of a coincidence Bert. Similar water, same dosing, same symptoms.

Even the stems on the Monte Carlo went white in places and I lost a shrimp (might not be related)

I've done three large water changes but the BBA has already started getting bad.

I'd have to agree with you. Similar water, same substrate, same dosing(basically). The pics of your plants look exactly the same as the hygro.

I think I'll die if BBA shows up lol.

Are you currently dosing any micro's at all? Have you stopped dosing and noticed any change?

What also interests me tho is the fact I didn't have too much of a problem like this in the 30 and always dosed micro's. When I stopped micro's in the 30 I noticed signs of deficiency (mostly mg tho I think) so maybe it was always there but I didn't notice it.

Also after reading that traces like iron struggle to move in water and tend to just sit on leaves etc I'm sure it would have to build up over time.

 

[flchamp89]

I do not believe its micros. My tank was actually similar. Couldn't hold bps cause of crap system. At the time I was using half the micros as now. Increased macros (fe too) helferi explodes and no cholorsis. Bba spread is slow but in highest flow areas. Bps now stable for 3 weeks definite reduction on bba. I think bba has to always be too much, not enough, or erratic co2. Barr buys that and I think I do too. Were you running above say 40ppm?

 

[Caliban07]

I do not believe its micros. My tank was actually similar. Couldn't hold bps cause of crap system. At the time I was using half the micros as now. Increased macros (fe too) helferi explodes and no cholorsis. Bba spread is slow but in highest flow areas. Bps now stable for 3 weeks definite reduction on bba. I think bba has to always be too much, not enough, or erratic co2. Barr buys that and I think I do too. Were you running above say 40ppm?

It's understanding the interaction between the ions. They compete for uptake and so adding more of one thing can alleviate toxicity of another. I haven't looked in to it enough to understand the ins and outs but I know that for example manganese competes for uptake with iron, and magnesium.

Also toxicity is also exacerbated by low GH and pH so adding more magnesium to boost General hardness will alleviate heavy metal toxicity. This is a huge section in D.Walstads book. My GH is just over 1dGH and I'm reducing pH via co2. My micro mix is also quite potent in some metals in comparison to say CSM+B.

 

[flchamp89]

Do you think this is an issue with dry vs say a seachem product were the AI are very low?

 

[Caliban07]

Do you think this is an issue with dry vs say a seachem product were the AI are very low?

I think this is an issue with Estimative index. You said it yourself and it's something that I couldn't agree with more. Everyone's tank is unique. Other things like DOC with protect against toxicity.

 

[flchamp89]

Keep us posted. Im so curious.

 

[Caliban07]

I'd have to agree with you. Similar water, same substrate, same dosing(basically). The pics of your plants look exactly the same as the hygro.

I think I'll die if BBA shows up lol.

Are you currently dosing any micro's at all? Have you stopped dosing and noticed any change?

What also interests me tho is the fact I didn't have too much of a problem like this in the 30 and always dosed micro's. When I stopped micro's in the 30 I noticed signs of deficiency (mostly mg tho I think) so maybe it was always there but I didn't notice it.

Also after reading that traces like iron struggle to move in water and tend to just sit on leaves etc I'm sure it would have to build up over time.

I've noticed an increase in speed of growth. The P.stellatus has shot up and the Monte Carlo is spreading again. I can't believe how fast it carpeted the first time around when I wasn't even dosing ferts. Compared to now. After the large water changes the ottos are all over munching and the one harlequin is joining the others.

 

[Bert2oo1]

I've noticed an increase in speed of growth. The P.stellatus has shot up and the Monte Carlo is spreading again. I can't believe how fast it carpeted the first time around when I wasn't even dosing ferts. Compared to now. After the large water changes the ottos are all over munching and the one harlequin is joining the others.

Interesting. My growth is pretty strong at the moment but I'd like to keep it that way. HC isn't spreading very fast but I think that's from the constant disturbance. Plants like the AR mini and all the crypts and anubias are growing like weeds.

Do you think maybe it's worth switching to PPS pro over EI? All this talk to toxicity and build ups of other nutrients etc has made me question ei's methods. Remember that video? The guy said that unless your "heavily planted" which to them is extremely heavy, then you should be taking a lean dosing approach (PPS pro?)

So much conflicting info!

Also cal do you know the mix for the Barr GH booster? For 500ml?

 

[Caliban07]

Interesting. My growth is pretty strong at the moment but I'd like to keep it that way. HC isn't spreading very fast but I think that's from the constant disturbance. Plants like the AR mini and all the crypts and anubias are growing like weeds.

Do you think maybe it's worth switching to PPS pro over EI? All this talk to toxicity and build ups of other nutrients etc has made me question ei's methods. Remember that video? The guy said that unless your "heavily planted" which to them is extremely heavy, then you should be taking a lean dosing approach (PPS pro?)

So much conflicting info!

I don't think so. I'm switching to a leaner approach. Maybe a liquid version of micros.

One thing a do remember is Wong saying he doesn't dose until the plants have settled in. I'm
Sure he said first few weeks. Think he uses a rich substrate though. I have been emailing Solcielo lawrencia. He's pretty well up on it and I just seem to remember the overwhelming number of cases that reported a response after detoxing. He still says they need to be dosed but 15micro grams of iron should be enough although the other traces at an FE dosing of 15 micro grams would not be enough. There's a fine line and it seems complicated.

 

[Bert2oo1]

I don't think so. I'm switching to a leaner approach. Maybe a liquid version of micros.

One thing a do remember is Wong saying he doesn't dose until the plants have settled in. I'm
Sure he said first few weeks. Think he uses a rich substrate though. I have been emailing Solcielo lawrencia. He's pretty well up on it and I just seem to remember the overwhelming number of cases that reported a response after detoxing. He still says they need to be dosed but 15micro grams of iron should be enough although the other traces at an FE dosing of 15 micro grams would not be enough. There's a fine line and it seems complicated.

So basically unless you buy all your seperate chelated traces and mixed your own mix you wouldn't be able to get the right amount into your tank without overdosing or under dosing?

Is it even possible to get it all seperate?

 

[flchamp89]

So basically unless you buy all your seperate chelated traces and mixed your own mix you wouldn't be able to get the right amount into your tank without overdosing or under dosing?

Is it even possible to get it all seperate?

This is exactly correct imo

 

[Bert2oo1]

This is exactly correct imo

Well that makes it hard.. Lol

You have abit of background in this side of things don't you Flchamp? Will mixing up a micro mix (in water) make it easier to dose? Do certain chelated traces mix together to make a tell toxic mix than to dose powder directly to your tank?

Is it also possible that the process that Eco complete goes through to be made could infact cover it with micro nutrients? So when it's comes with that bit of water in it it has been soaking in micro's for god knows how long?

 

[flchamp89]

Idk. Im learning my self. I am an entomologist with degree in hort. Aquatics have alot of similarities but alot of differences. I have not studied EI and pps enough. We have certain combinations that dont bind well. On land its different because we refer to liquids as quick release and drys as slow release based on the make up of the prills. But its totally different here. There are some basics though. Its hard to OD micros imo. Its hard to get enough fe. Its hard to test for fe. Its imo the most important under utilized micro next to K. We dont know the amounts we gain through wc. But I think it was you who talked about heavy plant mass. Ive heard 75 percent as the number? Idk.. For example I have only rotala which most would consider fast growers. Mine double in size each week. Im at approximately 2.5 x seachem recommended doses on all thier products I am using. Im guessing im 60 percent plant mass. My slow growing plants seem to grow slightly faster due to the influx of product which makes sense.

Ive read walstads book many times. I steal much of her ideas and then add to them. But if 50 percent of your tank is a carpet and then a few bigger plants it seems logical that it would actually be harder to get balance due to less uptake of all nutrients due to less roots overall. I have no science to back this up.

I could care less about fish....plants get me fired up lol.

Edit. Caliban and I were talking about that. How do we know how well the cation value is working with eco.