Bottled Bacteria - have I made a mistake?

[Masha]

I posted recently about my mystery fish deaths. I'll put the details at the end of the post, but basically, being at my wits end today I asked for advice from the guy at the petshop. He actually seemed rather knowledgeable and asked all the right questions. Long story short, he said I might need more surface agitation in the tank and sold me a tiny filter with a spray bar. He also recommended that I use "Microbe Lift Special Blend" bottled bacteria every time I do a water change.

My questions is: Is there any HARM in adding this bacteria (other than to my wallet)? Will it replace the bacteria I have already and make me dependent on this bottled variety that needs to be replaced?

I'm going to do another round of water tests but when I did them before they didn't show any problems. Water is 0 ammonia and nitrites and 12.5 nitrates. I'm going to do some ph tests before and after the next water change to see if there is anything odd there, but in the past, there havent been.

The details of my tank and the mystery deaths:
100L tank (more or less 23 gallons)
Aquaclear 70 HOB filter
50% waterchange once a week from water than's been preheated to the right temp and treated with Prime, left to stand for 48 hours.

Currently in the tank: 6 black skirt tetra, 1 bronze cory, 4 khuli loaches.

I also add Seachem Excell, Nitrogen and Potassium for my plants - I'm going to recheck the doses but I did calculate them very carefully according to the instructions before.

Over the last 6 months I lost 4 silvertips and 3 sword tails, and before that 2 cories, no signs of disease, all fish that had been in my tank for about a year without any problems so it's not "there was something wrong with them when you bought them". Fish just get lethargic and then die.

Over the last 6 months we had regular power failures lasting 2.5 hours about once or twice a week. I thought at first that this was the cause of the deaths but I'm no longer so sure as neither temperature or water parameters changed during that time.

The guy at the petshop also said "maybe it's a bubble of bad gas from your substrate".

Any insights? Much appreciated.

 

[Delapool]

I posted recently about my mystery fish deaths. I'll put the details at the end of the post, but basically, being at my wits end today I asked for advice from the guy at the petshop. He actually seemed rather knowledgeable and asked all the right questions. Long story short, he said I might need more surface agitation in the tank and sold me a tiny filter with a spray bar. He also recommended that I use "Microbe Lift Special Blend" bottled bacteria every time I do a water change.



My questions is: Is there any HARM in adding this bacteria (other than to my wallet)? Will it replace the bacteria I have already and make me dependent on this bottled variety that needs to be replaced?



I'm going to do another round of water tests but when I did them before they didn't show any problems. Water is 0 ammonia and nitrites and 12.5 nitrates. I'm going to do some ph tests before and after the next water change to see if there is anything odd there, but in the past, there havent been.



The details of my tank and the mystery deaths:

100L tank (more or less 23 gallons)

Aquaclear 70 HOB filter

50% waterchange once a week from water than's been preheated to the right temp and treated with Prime, left to stand for 48 hours.



Currently in the tank: 6 black skirt tetra, 1 bronze cory, 4 khuli loaches.



I also add Seachem Excell, Nitrogen and Potassium for my plants - I'm going to recheck the doses but I did calculate them very carefully according to the instructions before.



Over the last 6 months I lost 4 silvertips and 3 sword tails, and before that 2 cories, no signs of disease, all fish that had been in my tank for about a year without any problems so it's not "there was something wrong with them when you bought them". Fish just get lethargic and then die.



Over the last 6 months we had regular power failures lasting 2.5 hours about once or twice a week. I thought at first that this was the cause of the deaths but I'm no longer so sure as neither temperature or water parameters changed during that time.



The guy at the petshop also said "maybe it's a bubble of bad gas from your substrate".



Any insights? Much appreciated.

Hi Masha,

I must confess I regularly have the tank power off overnight or part of the day with no issues. Unless it's adding a lot to a stressed tank (somehow), my guess is that it is not the power.

I assume you would be dosing ferts and excel as per recommended?

I've noticed my live bearers are doing better since the water hardness has increased a little from ferts dosing and also feeding a high quality food.

Imo nitrifying bacteria in a bottle can be dosed until the cows come home. The sludge destroying bacteria in a bottle I would not dose in high heat or if tank is unstable. Too hard to manage as they multiply so quickly.

 

[Masha]

I think you are right about the power cuts, Delapool. I think that's a red herring and something else is wrong.

I'm dosing ferts and excel as recommended. I've gone over that again and I'm pretty sure that my dosing is correct.

I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph?

Imo nitrifying bacteria in a bottle can be dosed until the cows come home. The sludge destroying bacteria in a bottle I would not dose in high heat or if tank is unstable. Too hard to manage as they multiply so quickly.

 

[ImACoolguy]

Your bottled bacteria you can dose as much as you want it won't make a difference.

The bottles are a game of chance and sometimes do absolutely nothing.

Just IMO they are a waste of money for something that might do nothing.


Caleb

 

[Masha]

I wish I could return the bottled bacteria, it's fairly pricey. I put the receipt on the table and when I turned around it was gone. Must have blown in under something. Can't return it without the receipt...chalk it up to experience, I guess.

 

[ImACoolguy]

I wish I could return the bottled bacteria, it's fairly pricey. I put the receipt on the table and when I turned around it was gone. Must have blown in under something. Can't return it without the receipt...chalk it up to experience, I guess.

I've played that game a few too many times lol. One day it's there then you need it and it's gone.


Caleb

 

[Delapool]

I think you are right about the power cuts, Delapool. I think that's a red herring and something else is wrong.

I'm dosing ferts and excel as recommended. I've gone over that again and I'm pretty sure that my dosing is correct.

I'm not sure I understand your last paragraph?

Dosing sounds good. Strange one.

My experience has been that I've thought the adding of the autotroph bacteria has helped during cycling and the adding of the heterotroph bacteria has helped keep the filters clean. One of the filters is semi-see through so I was able to roughly see the improvement after dosing. The main change was after the first couple of doses.

We used to add a bacteria in a bottle to the septic tank every year as well and I can kind of get my head around that where we may have been adding a better bacteria or somehow improving the bacteria population. My father used to tell me they added a dead hen to a septic tank to get it going initially so there could be something to that (or possibly just an old wives tale ). Septic tank was in good condition whenever it got checked so it doesn't seem to have made anything worse.

I do struggle a bit with the idea of continuous dosing though of bacteria in a bottle. Don't see how it is needed. I don't dose bacteria in a bottle very often either now.

And others report no improvement at all as you would know.

The trouble I have with the hetero bacteria is that they are basically consuming organic sources to get their food. I had one tank I dosed with a bottle going cheap on a brand I had never seen. That week there was also a heat wave and I am still convinced the two set off a bacterial infection in the tank. So generally I suggest these products are not dosed in a tank with unhealthy fish or the tank is stressed - just in case the bacteria get a foothold in the fish imo.

 

[ScotJudd]

Hi Masha.
A couple of observations from your initial post.
You currently have just one Cory, this could well stress him as they like company, usually five Corys is considered a minimum grouping.
I don't believe any established tank requires additional bottled bacteria, I doubt it does any good, could do some harm and costs too much.
The theory about the gas from the substrate has some merit if you don't regularly gravel clean, not easy with plants. My solution is Malaysian Trumpet Snails. They live in the substrate in the daytime, turning over the gravel or sand releasing gases before they build up, and feed on decaying leaves and algae. They don't eat live plants. They do eat left over fish food and multiply at an astounding rate if the tank is over fed, so be warned.
Finally, fish die and not always for a visible reason, as all animals do. There's not always a cause that can be attributed to the fish keeper. However, you are quite right to watch the parameters that can be affected by the water company, Ph in particular. Very soft water, low Kh and Gh, can also lead to Ph instability. It's worth keeping an eye on.


Sent from my iPad in West Yorkshire, U.K.

 

[Masha]

ScotJud, you are right about the cory - the reason I have only one is because the others died, and up to now I didn't want to get more before I have an idea what might be wrong. As far as I can see he's not stressed, although I suppose I can't be sure. He doesn't hide at all.

If the water tests don't reveal anything I might get him some friends again.

I have some malaysian trumpet snails, I only got them recently so it's too early I suppose for them to do anything. I've not really noticed them burying in the substrate at all but maybe their too small at the moment for that to be all that noticeable. They do multiply quickly though! Is that a definite sign that I'm overfeeding?

Delapool, a dead hen!!! That's quite a story A whole new approach to establishing a cycle.

 

[Delapool]

Could be a write up there on new cycling methods

Got any other readings like ph, phosphate, gh and kh? I doubt anything will pop up but just to ask.

I don't suppose a neighbour or anyone keeps fish? If they are also seeing several fish a month lost perhaps it is tap water quality. If was just a fish every 2 or 3 months lost it would sound much better imo.

Other one would be are you dosing ferts and excel all in one go for each week or a bit each night? Just tossing them out here as pretty stumped.

 

[Masha]

Could be a write up there on new cycling methods

Got any other readings like ph, phosphate, gh and kh? I doubt anything will pop up but just to ask.

I don't suppose a neighbour or anyone keeps fish? If they are also seeing several fish a month lost perhaps it is tap water quality.

Other one would be are you dosing ferts and excel all in one go for each week or a bit each night? Just tossing them out here as pretty stumped.

The neighbors I have with fish are pretty much keeping goldfish in bowls

I'm not dosing all the ferts in one go, I do a bit each morning. I found a schedule somebody suggested and adjusted it for my tank size.

I used 90 litres as my volume, my tank is 100 litres but with gravel, driftwood etc I think there is only 90 litres of actual water


Sunday:
Excel 2ml
Flourish 1.8ml
Nitrogen 1.4ml


Monday
Excel 2ml


Tuesday
Excel 2ml
Potassium 3.6


Wednesday
Excel 2ml
Nitrogen 1.4ml


Thursday
Excel 2ml
Potassium 3.6

Friday
Excel 2ml

Saturday
Excel 2ml

Question: If I did make a mistake and say accidentally dosed 2ml Nitrogen thinking that I had hold of the Excel bottle or something like that, would that be enough to kill a fish?

 

[Delapool]

The neighbors I have with fish are pretty much keeping goldfish in bowls



I'm not dosing all the ferts in one go, I do a bit each morning. I found a schedule somebody suggested and adjusted it for my tank size.



I used 90 litres as my volume, my tank is 100 litres but with gravel, driftwood etc I think there is only 90 litres of actual water





Sunday:

Excel 2ml

Flourish 1.8ml

Nitrogen 1.4ml





Monday

Excel 2ml





Tuesday

Excel 2ml

Potassium 3.6





Wednesday

Excel 2ml

Nitrogen 1.4ml





Thursday

Excel 2ml

Potassium 3.6



Friday

Excel 2ml



Saturday

Excel 2ml



Question: If I did make a mistake and say accidentally dosed 2ml Nitrogen thinking that I had hold of the Excel bottle or something like that, would that be enough to kill a fish?

Imo the excel would be the one to watch. I've given up dosing a 5gal as it was too hard to dose glut consistently, I'm not quite sold on glut as a carbon source and since stopping the fish seem better. And not seeing snails lost.

I've dosed glut up to 8 times strength and gone back to 2x or 4x dose as at 8x I found the plants didn't seem to like it. The higher dose rate was ok for most fish as long as it was consistent with small changes made.

Potassium I've dosed above EI levels with no issues. Nitrogen - sitting on the fence. I don't like dosing much if I can help it as it seems to set off algae but if I had to pick, I'd be more wary of the nitrogen compared to potassium.

However I'm still just tossing out ideas here as I'm sure you would be taking care. The only way I can really imagine it is if the multiple stress eg weak stock, a ferts dose is slightly off and you get tank power off on maybe a hot day got to them? Do they just fade away and die or get dropsy or anything at then that indicates slow organ failure?

It could be something to try with the next fish. Halve the excel and nitrogen and see if they do better.

Argh, goldfish in a bowl. Won't tell us much unfortunately

 

[Masha]

Sorry Delapool I see I missed some of your questions: I don't know KH or GH of the water.

The fish didn't show any symptoms that I picked up, they just got sort of lethargic for a few days, hiding a bit more, then died.

I think I'm going to follow your advice about the ferts - reduce the amount of nitrogen and excel.

Test PH a few time before and after water changes to see if there's a swing.

Test the usual water parameters as well before water changes again

Maybe cut down a bit on how much I'm feeding.

I might even put in a dose of that bottled bacteria, who knows, it might help!

 

[gilpi]

Take the bottle bacteria back. If you can't find the receipt, try to get store credit at least.


Sent from my iPad using Aquarium Advice

 

[Delapool]

Sorry Delapool I see I missed some of your questions: I don't know KH or GH of the water.



The fish didn't show any symptoms that I picked up, they just got sort of lethargic for a few days, hiding a bit more, then died.



I think I'm going to follow your advice about the ferts - reduce the amount of nitrogen and excel.



Test PH a few time before and after water changes to see if there's a swing.



Test the usual water parameters as well before water changes again



Maybe cut down a bit on how much I'm feeding.



I might even put in a dose of that bottled bacteria, who knows, it might help!

Well, I'm pretty stumped to be honest. Good luck with the new stocking.

 

[ScotJudd]

Hi Masha, going back to the MTS. Obviously they will need food to be healthy and breed but if you have HUNDREDS and they are covering the glass in the evening and night time then you have too many. Culling may be required and then more careful feeding. I tend to pull out the biggest ones if a problem arises, the breeding size, and it then calms down. Don't be put off them though.


Sent from my iPad in West Yorkshire, U.K.

 

[Swampman]

Hi Masha: If you haven't seen any of the bodies of your cories. They still may be living. I bought two cores. I didn't see them for 3 weeks. Than all of a sudden I spot one than the other I bought. right now I have 3 cories in the tank. I use the same type of plant fert. My plants are growing like weeds. I didn't see what type of lighting you tank has. That is the key to growing strong plants. I tried Florissant lighting. It is fine for the first 6 months than gradually you will see the light getting dimmer and the plants not doing well. Time to change the bulbs. Every 6 months. Very expensive. I finally bought LEDS The LED is full spectrum and the plants are growing well.

 

[Masha]

Hi Masha, going back to the MTS. Obviously they will need food to be healthy and breed but if you have HUNDREDS and they are covering the glass in the evening and night time then you have too many. Culling may be required and then more careful feeding. I tend to pull out the biggest ones if a problem arises, the breeding size, and it then calms down. Don't be put off them though.
Sent from my iPad in West Yorkshire, U.K.

Thanks. I'll keep an eye on them. I actually really like them and am impressed with how quickly they reproduce.

Hi Masha: If you haven't seen any of the bodies of your cories. They still may be living. I bought two cores. I didn't see them for 3 weeks. Than all of a sudden I spot one than the other I bought. right now I have 3 cories in the tank. I use the same type of plant fert. My plants are growing like weeds. I didn't see what type of lighting you tank has. That is the key to growing strong plants. I tried Florissant lighting. It is fine for the first 6 months than gradually you will see the light getting dimmer and the plants not doing well. Time to change the bulbs. Every 6 months. Very expensive. I finally bought LEDS The LED is full spectrum and the plants are growing well.

They do hide, don't they! Sadly I did find the bodies so there are no nice surprises for me hiding between my plants

My lights are a bit dim. I have a home made LED light that was supposed to be an interim solution and has somehow become permanent. I need to do something about that.

I tested my water today and the PH is 8, which is what it always is. So there should be no swing in PH when I do a water change.

I'm guessing maybe there was a one off event like me accidentally overdosing nitrogen, or putting my hands in the tank when they were contaminated with something...who knows.

I'm going to go ahead and get a few more cories and see if they survive.

 

[Masha]

Just to finish off this thread -
1) I found the receipt so I can return the bottled bacteria

2) I discovered that I've been making a mistake in measuring the temperature of my barrel of aged water, it was actually colder than it should have been by about 5 degrees Celsius. So...maybe that contributed to fish stress especially as I've been doing larger than usual water changes lately.

Thanks for all the help.