Bottled bacteria

[Jferrante]

I've recently made the realization that the good high end Bottled bacteria blends like Microbe-Lift, Safe start, Dr tim's one and only are, etc.. are actually very helpful in most tanks. When you cycle a tank you have no idea whats really in your cycle unless you're a scientist and can test and compare your water to that of what seems the healthiest in scientific form. You could have a simple cycle with your most basic anaerobic bacteria and this will do fine but when you add these "patented" bacteria blends your adding the exact kind you need to have a tough as nails cycle.
I'm not saying you need it but when you look at the actual science and not just say it's a "chemical" (it's not a chemical btw it's bacteria. Bacteria is a living thing, chemicals are not.) The only real con of using it though is introducing unwanted bacteria but thats not likely if you take care in buying and storing the product.
I also think when using it dose only as much as you need. If your tanks cycled use it just a a quarter to half the dose as directed just to add the beneficial bacteria you may not have to the colony. Also add it directly to the filter. If the tank cycle is in the fritz often or even if it just has a mini cycle out of nowhere then this is probably the ideal thing to use in addition to the normal procedure.

Anyways after a lot of research and having grown up surrounded by several science geeks all taking medical courses or teaching science classes I have a decent grasp of what to accept as a potential truth and what is just plain ignorance. I think there should be a little more faith in this.
As one person said while researching this subject
"I don't need to drink tea but I feel better when I do."
Right now I'm starting to see it as like what antioxidants do for us.


I plan on rounding up some studies eventually to have sources on this. I was even thinking of making like a little tumblr blog and stockpiling solid information on everything to do with aquariums and organizing it to be like the a good overview on it since I've been applying to local aquarium stores. But this will all take some time of course. But it's fun to research this stuff and I've become sort of hooked on it as many of you probably have and it also has a huge importance in the real world as well as in the hobby. It has ties to advanced hydroponic systems (food) and healthy ecosystems especially since the majority of the living world is underwater and relies on water to live. Anyways back to the topic at hand

 

[Hholly]

I think that the thing that makes most people not recommend those products is that it's questionable that there are actually any live bacteria in them. Nitrifying bacteria die pretty quickly without a food source. So how do they stay alive in a bottle that sits on a store shelf for months? The proof would be if you could see living cells under a microscope.


There are many other chemicals that people pour into their tanks that upset the balance in the water to fix a problem that could be solved by basic water changes and maintenance.

I think a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing when it comes to all these products. Dechlorinator is really the only chemical needed.

Just my opinion.

 

[Jferrante]

"chemicals" though is quite a big term though since everything has a chemical makeup and things like water, oxygen, and Co2, hydrogen peroxide, vinegar, excel, water conditioners etc are all chemical compounds. I know you mean Man-made chemicals and yes it's better to focus on only natural chemical compounds but most of the stuff you add to a tank are just isolated compounds suspended in water or pressurized in a canister like co2 or filtered and maintained like tap water.
it's all about knowing what it is and what it does specifically and I think most people are turned away by the science and just figure that "god while find a way" in a sense. which can be rather ignorant at times.

As far as shelf life I believe it's strongest when first made and then gradually becomes less active but doesn't necessarily die. Bacteria are very tough organisms and live for 100 or more years without ideal conditions. When you fight an infection in a fish or even in your own body you don't necessarily always remove it from your body but simply weaken it enough to regain your strength. Also if it stinks its probably good just because of the process the bacteria goes through and if the date is close to two years from the day you bought it your probably good. As far as temperature the ones bottled these days would have to be frozen solid or boiled to be completely killed off. Even then some of it might survive. it's always a gamble with live organisms and since you can't physically see this one you just have to wait and see.

 

[Mebbid]

This is a really odd way of wording your stance on this. I'm subscribing so I can respond to this when I have a bit more time to address everything.

 

[Hholly]

I just saw this on another thread. Very interesting...
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

 

[Jferrante]

Hmm indeed it's interesting. Thank you.
So an overwhelming hydrogen sulfide smell is not necessarily good according to that. But I'm also starting to dig into why they add it to Microbe-lift Special blend. Apperently it's supposed to induce a sort of hibernation according to some sources. But i'm still trying to piece together the puzzle.
I suppose the best way to figure out if these things can actually last a few years in a bottle is to identify the bacteria needed for a cycle. Since each species has different functions and needs.

So far there I've seen.

-Nitrosomonas

-Nitrobacter
-Nitrospira

Nitrosomonas converts ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrospira and Nitrobacter convert Nitrite to nitrate.

These however are just genus and not specific species. This may or may not matter though it depends on if the specific species targeted in the blends changes the outcome of their storage or survival. This gives reason for a patent on the blend.

I think hydrogen sulfide is another thing that we need to figure out more on... it's the seems it is the waste product of the bacteria but how does this relate this supposed hibernation if it would normally kill the bacteria if in excess? Apparently it also removes oxygen from water which could be dangerous but that action changes when the water is aerated well. so perhaps it's function is keep oxygen levels down in the bottle while providing a source of carbon for the bacteria.

So perhaps the darker the bottle the older it is... It also appears some actually shouldn't be refrigerated at all since it would mean killing the bacteria and instead be stored in that 77-86 degree range normal present in our aquariums.

also the difference between each brand also could be what they use to preserve the bacteria
Dr tim said this in one video

The reason I'm doing this is because I'm hoping we can figure out
if these work the way their supposed to?
how long do they really last?
how to tell if they've actually gone bad?
What's the difference between the brands specifically?

I just want to get past the vague answers and see if we can really dig out a easy way to understand and explain the real science behind it. A lot of brands figure the average consumer just won't understand so they don't openly point out the specifics which results in lots of skepticism that may or may not be true. Plus there is patents on some of these species but the information has to be out there regardless.

and Mebbid I understand what you mean but I hope by the end of this research the wording can be put just right. I'm can't always put everything in the right wording in the first draft which is why this is a learning experience. My goal here is to sort through the opinion and facts and simply understand the science here and It's a little more complex than general information on a cycle so it can be confusing.

 

[Hholly]

I guess you could take it to a lab. Maybe a school laboratory where they could grow cultures from the bottle. I bet a biology class would love that.

 

[Jferrante]

it would make for interesting science lesson thats for sure. so many interesting project come out of the topic. if it was like 7 years ago I could have this really good science teacher that used to teach at the private school my mom worked at help do such a project. It's funny because her daughter and husband and herself all share the name Dr. Kosher and all have doctorates in science. But she is retired and moved to florida.

I feel the best way to understand an optimal aquarium is to understand the ideal natural environment... But at the same time the easiest way to study the natural environment is probably with an aquarium. But ultimately you need to bounce the information back and fourth between the two to really know what makes it "ideal" or even not ideal.

 

[Hholly]

It's definitely interesting to try out your ideas and theories. Either way, you will end up with a nice fish tank.

 

[Mebbid]

When you cycle a tank you have no idea whats really in your cycle unless you're a scientist and can test and compare your water to that of what seems the healthiest in scientific form. You could have a simple cycle with your most basic anaerobic bacteria and this will do fine but when you add these "patented" bacteria blends your adding the exact kind you need to have a tough as nails cycle.

Your statement here about a "tough as nails" cycle really made me think for a second. Does having a specific type of bacteria really make your cycle any more efficient or tough? I for one have never ever heard of someone's cycle "crashing" without a precipitating factor. Usually this factor is one of two things 1. they change the filter cartridge or 2. their pH is too low. Either one of these factors will have the same outcome regardless of what species of bacteria are found in your tank. Your statement regarding the "correct" bacteria would definitely have some backing proof behind it seeing how at least 80% of people if not more don't use any of these bottled bacteria products.

I also think when using it dose only as much as you need. If your tanks cycled use it just a a quarter to half the dose as directed just to add the beneficial bacteria you may not have to the colony. Also add it directly to the filter. If the tank cycle is in the fritz often or even if it just has a mini cycle out of nowhere then this is probably the ideal thing to use in addition to the normal procedure.

What is your reasoning here? What would be the harm in adding more than suggested?

Anyways after a lot of research and having grown up surrounded by several science geeks all taking medical courses or teaching science classes I have a decent grasp of what to accept as a potential truth and what is just plain ignorance. I think there should be a little more faith in this.
As one person said while researching this subject
"I don't need to drink tea but I feel better when I do."
Right now I'm starting to see it as like what antioxidants do for us.

There isn't a lot of faith in these products because they don't deserve a lot of faith. 9 times out of 10 people that use these bacterial additive products see little to no effect from them. The true success stories are definitely in the minority. If they were truly as effective as their lofty claims say they are we would see a much higher success rate with these products.

I plan on rounding up some studies eventually to have sources on this.

The big problems with rounding up studies is that there are very very very few legitimate scientific studies regarding bottled bacteria in the hobby. Most of the information is supplied by the vendors (microbe lift is an excellent example here) and none of it peer reviewed.

As far as shelf life I believe it's strongest when first made and then gradually becomes less active but doesn't necessarily die. Bacteria are very tough organisms and live for 100 or more years without ideal conditions.

Yes, some bacteria certainly does live for hundreds of years. These are spore forming bacteria such as Clostridium botulinum though. In comparison our nitrifying bacteria is much more fragile (although not as fragile as many people believe)

Also if it stinks its probably good just because of the process the bacteria goes through and if the date is close to two years from the day you bought it your probably good. As far as temperature the ones bottled these days would have to be frozen solid or boiled to be completely killed off.

120 degrees is around the most the bacteria can handle which isn't impossible to reach.

The proof would be if you could see living cells under a microscope.

You don't need a microscope to see the living cells. With a bottle of bacteria and about $15 in supplies along with a little training you could test to see if there are living bacteria in the bottle at home.

I suppose the best way to figure out if these things can actually last a few years in a bottle is to identify the bacteria needed for a cycle. Since each species has different functions and needs.

I wish I had saved the link to the article that was posted now. From what I've read there seems to be new research that large amounts of archaea are also contributing to the nitrification process.

 

[Jferrante]

I hear you Mebbid but still whether they work or not comes from understanding the product. Even if there isn't very many peer studies on the products you can still dissect it's contents in many ways to understand what and how it's supposed to work and get a much more realistic hypothesis on it.

my first response wasn't well put together but I'm glad to see your points because they are helpful in clarifying my mistakes in that comment.

You're definitely right about a cycle always being vulnerable to simple causes such as too much cleaning regardless if it's tough or not. It takes time rather than a specific blend for a tank to be able to spring back from over cleaning and ph and temperature can be even more harmful to it. I suppose what I was trying to say was it has more beneficial qualities rather than being "tough."

I'm sure there is a point where the vendors claims and real life application overlaps. I mean there is a strong need for such a thing. At home in a simple setup we are allowed patience. But for businesses like LFS, or those that set up aquariums for people, nature centers, tourist locations, restaurants, etc.. you may have to set up everything as quick as possible and may not have colonized media to use. If you build a massive aquarium it requires a huge filtration system and tons and tons of media so they're probably pouring in gallons of fresh bottled bacteria. Also it allows you to know exactly what you have put in the tank vs old media could have unwanted colonies.
I don't mean to say that everyones tanks that don't use it aren't really good because that's certainty not true and you can still establish a perfectly good cycle without adding anything but that the fact that these bottles contain specific species with a specific intention could potential help. If we can get to the bottom of why these vendors make these claims and what is it that they learned about their supposed studies in making it we can better understand how they work.
I don't have a lab and I'm not a scientist and certainty don't have the funding for such a task. so I myself can't do the legitimate peer studies on them. But I believe you could piece together enough information just searching the internet to find a good stance on it that isn't just the common ignorance or a result of overlooked variables.

 

[Mebbid]

If we can get to the bottom of why these vendors make these claims

Profit.

 

[Hholly]

Profit.

Agreed.

 

[Stacey W.]

Just to briefly chime in, if you don't mind. I have known so many people that have purchased these "bacterial supplements" believing that after they dump these products into a tank they think that the tank is magically cycled. Then they throw fish into the tank thinking that would thrive.

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[evil Nick]

I use it during my water changes. I was always under the impression it was food for the bacteria and not the bacteria itself but I also think to much

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[Jferrante]

Well of course there is profit but then there is the people that bought a fish and a tank and had it die because they had no idea what a cycle is and were traumatized by the experience so now they made it their life's goal to try and preventing it so they buy a lab and study fish and study what keeps them alive till they develop a treatment plan.
Yes some sell the stuff like its a cure all snake oil, but i don't think it is one necessarily but that they have unrealistic expectations on how fast it works they often forget to add in that you still have to allow the bacteria to feed, reproduce and adhere to the surfaces of the tank and filter and during this time the water parameters may fluctuate as they normally would. so if you have fish in you must dose with things like prime or do a water change when something spikes.



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[Mebbid]

The aquarium industry is full of shady practices in order to make money. From seachem bottling up pumice, saying it's this brand new amazing product, and selling it for 200x it's value to filter companies telling you that you need to change the filter monthly.

 

[Jferrante]

Its like having old media only there is more variables and bigger risk due to it having to be concentrated bottled and shelved. But it can still work better than nothing in a pinch or as a booster.


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[Jferrante]

What do you have against pumice?? Its the most porous rocks on earth.
So it has the most surface area because of it.

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[Mebbid]

What do you have against pumice?? Its one of not the most porous rocks on earth.


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I have nothing against pumice. I have a problem with seachem hiding what matrix is made out of so they can over charge like crazy and call it a specialized product.

Its like having old media only there is more variables and bigger risk due to it having to be concentrated bottled and shelved. But it can still work better than nothing in a pinch or as a booster.


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Yes, but the aquarium companies fail to leave the most important part out. The fact that it's not supposed to be a stand alone cycle product. A fact which companies conveniently leave out.