Caliban's AquaOpti 85L

[Autumnsky]

Fascinating, to try and learn from you guys on the ferts issues being bounced back and forth. Thanks for taking the extra time to type it all out. This is the kind of stuff that is really useful.

 

[Bert2oo1]

After doing some reading I've found this very interesting. I've always had an issue with surface scum aswell (I use the filter to agitate the surface so it doesn't form).

A few points in my tank I have noticed after reading a fair bit of this info,
surface scum being the first.

Since adding fluval stratum substrate (an iron rich substrate) the plants in the substrate have been rather slow growing compared to a lot of others in the tank. My repens are looking good but not as bright and healthy as they should be.

Over the past few weeks my plant growth has slowed down abit. Not sure if this is from maybe a toxicity or if it's the effect of overdosing nitrates.

But here is my biggest interest point to this toxicity point. I have a crypt at the front of my tank. Since it has been moved from the back to the front of the tank it has been constantly melted. It's growth rate is fine but the leaves just flop on the ground. it is in direct flow of the filter and I always dose my ferts in the very front of the tank. The crypt I have at the back of the tank (from the same main stem) is thriving and has always pointed to the lights.

Me and cal both know my issue isn't co2 and isn't flow. Nor is it a lack of kno3 or potassium.

It is a possibility that my Eco complete/ fluval soil has drawn in too much and is actually at toxic levels.

I too will be laying off my iron dosage and seeing what results I get.

If u don't mind cal I'll keep people posted in here on my findings as I go.

 

[Caliban07]

This app is being very strange. I'm on page 6 now and when I go one page back to try and view my latest post RE toxicity it is missing and it says page 5/5. Very annoying and 'buggy' at the moment this app.

 

[Caliban07]

Fascinating, to try and learn from you guys on the ferts issues being bounced back and forth. Thanks for taking the extra time to type it all out. This is the kind of stuff that is really useful.

Thanks Autumn I just hope there is some correlation. I literally can't think of any other variable that would cause this.

 

[Caliban07]

After doing some reading I've found this very interesting. I've always had an issue with surface scum aswell (I use the filter to agitate the surface so it doesn't form).

A few points in my tank I have noticed after reading a fair bit of this info,
surface scum being the first.

Since adding fluval stratum substrate (an iron rich substrate) the plants in the substrate have been rather slow growing compared to a lot of others in the tank. My repens are looking good but not as bright and healthy as they should be.

Over the past few weeks my plant growth has slowed down abit. Not sure if this is from maybe a toxicity or if it's the effect of overdosing nitrates.

But here is my biggest interest point to this toxicity point. I have a crypt at the front of my tank. Since it has been moved from the back to the front of the tank it has been constantly melted. It's growth rate is fine but the leaves just flop on the ground. it is in direct flow of the filter and I always dose my ferts in the very front of the tank. The crypt I have at the back of the tank (from the same main stem) is thriving and has always pointed to the lights.

Me and cal both know my issue isn't co2 and isn't flow. Nor is it a lack of kno3 or potassium.

It is a possibility that my Eco complete/ fluval soil has drawn in too much and is actually at toxic levels.

I too will be laying off my iron dosage and seeing what results I get.

If u don't mind cal I'll keep people posted in here on my findings as I go.

It sounds like the issues you mention could be related but it would be useful to approach the situation with a degree of scepticism. For example, the floating S.repens tips that are showing side shoots are closer to the light and have more co2 or in your case many people mention crypt melt when they are moved but it definitely does seem conspicuous.

Also many people that reported improvements when cutting back/out micros were using osmocote too so that could have made things worse. The average time to see noticeable improvements was around 2 weeks so I need to leave it a bit longer. The short term results monte carlo wise are not good. It's also worth noting that toxicities will be species dependant too and some may not show any signs. My ludwigia glandulosa for example seems ok but i trimmed a few days ago and planted the tops. One uprooted last night after a water change and there are no signs of it growing more roots any time soon.

I'm watching some of the Monte Carlo strands closely as they have been lifted from the substrate but are being anchored by the roots. The portions that are not in the substrate have sent out new roots in search of the substrate and the new leaves are taking longer to brown.

Also I've been watching a new health root coming of the side of the P.erectus about an inch from the substate for a few days. It had reached the substrate last night and I'm trying to see if the root turns brown.

 

[Delapool]

Hi, I read through and jotted down some thoughts but bearing in mind I've killed a huge number of plants. So this was just in case anything clicked.

CO2 re ph on post 100 looked fine. Tbh and without looking at kh I thought it was at the upper end of doable re fish. Bearing in mind I'm relating this back to my tank but CO2 sounded good reading through posts. Light sounded heaps as you had algae

Substrate of eco complete sounded fine although I've never used. It seems a very young tank and I'm wondering if still bedding down / going through changes.

With mine I've gone through months of trying plants to see what will grow. So it could be worthwhile putting in some plants that have worked in other tanks just to see what happens.

Toxicity wise I've only managed to do this using phosphate buffers. That was the weird problem I had where I dosed phosphate buffers without knowing, plant growth stopped dead, lower stem base rotted / went brown and leaves just dropped off. Phosphate from memory took quite a few water changes to get back to a readable level - maybe an excess of phosphates or I'm still wondering if an iron phosphate problem (in link). I did one last test of adding buffers and killed off most plants so buffers went in the drawer. Everyone here said that was just weird.

Problems you might have with the aquatic plants in your aquarium

Dosing iron too high I do find the ambulia goes muddy brown and looks terrible. If really bad it seems to droop / soften maybe and I've thrown it out like that. I've managed to do that to quite a few fine, needle leaf plants here. Or maybe its a combination of things and that just pushes it over the edge.

Dosing copper at E.I. I've not noticed an issue or it was subtle. But having cut back micro ferts dosing maybe plants are doing better. I think that was in a thread by Brian - will see if I can find.

It sounded like you were getting growth and pearling? Light sounds fine. Got any chem readings but I can't imagine an issue on macros? I do wonder if cut stem plants are more sensitive then those with roots so maybe micros could be an issue. Anyways hoping your tank settles in a month or two from this brown thumb

 

[Delapool]

And finally found it. I was basing micro ferts dosing off iron and had never considered other elements.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/ei-dosing-micro-toxicity-343121.html

 

[Caliban07]

And finally found it. I was basing micro ferts dosing off iron and had never considered other elements.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/ei-dosing-micro-toxicity-343121.html

Thanks but I linked that thread earlier [emoji4] I've read it. I've read a few on various forums and this concept seemed to be gathering wind around that time. Seems to have gone off the boil a bit. In the other thread I linked, although it was never confirmed or denied by Mr Barr himself. Post calculations by some other members of that forum concluded that he wasn't actually following EI for micros.

It's times like this I wish I'd have gone with a thin layer of soil and let the plants sort out the micros.

 

[Caliban07]

Hi, I read through and jotted down some thoughts but bearing in mind I've killed a huge number of plants. So this was just in case anything clicked.

CO2 re ph on post 100 looked fine. Tbh and without looking at kh I thought it was at the upper end of doable re fish. Bearing in mind I'm relating this back to my tank but CO2 sounded good reading through posts. Light sounded heaps as you had algae

Substrate of eco complete sounded fine although I've never used. It seems a very young tank and I'm wondering if still bedding down / going through changes.

With mine I've gone through months of trying plants to see what will grow. So it could be worthwhile putting in some plants that have worked in other tanks just to see what happens.

Toxicity wise I've only managed to do this using phosphate buffers. That was the weird problem I had where I dosed phosphate buffers without knowing, plant growth stopped dead, lower stem base rotted / went brown and leaves just dropped off. Phosphate from memory took quite a few water changes to get back to a readable level - maybe an excess of phosphates or I'm still wondering if an iron phosphate problem (in link). I did one last test of adding buffers and killed off most plants so buffers went in the drawer. Everyone here said that was just weird.

Problems you might have with the aquatic plants in your aquarium

Dosing iron too high I do find the ambulia goes muddy brown and looks terrible. If really bad it seems to droop / soften maybe and I've thrown it out like that. I've managed to do that to quite a few fine, needle leaf plants here. Or maybe its a combination of things and that just pushes it over the edge.

Dosing copper at E.I. I've not noticed an issue or it was subtle. But having cut back micro ferts dosing maybe plants are doing better. I think that was in a thread by Brian - will see if I can find.

It sounded like you were getting growth and pearling? Light sounds fine. Got any chem readings but I can't imagine an issue on macros? I do wonder if cut stem plants are more sensitive then those with roots so maybe micros could be an issue. Anyways hoping your tank settles in a month or two from this brown thumb

Perhaps excess phosphate blocks the uptake of another nutrient. I don't know I'm just guessing here. Are you saying you may have had micro toxicity problems? Do you think you could do a two week detox to see if you notice any difference. By detox I mean no micros. Just those from fish food. Also what is your GH and KH?

My other parameters are good I'm almost certain of it.

 

[Bert2oo1]

Cal's Aquaopti 85L

Interesting posts already! The crypt that I moved was moved over 4 months ago and has stayed melted ever since.

My issues at the moment could just be stemmed from the extra nitrate I was adding but I'll be keeping an eye on the iron also. I'll detox and see the results.

I haven't had any issues with roots, every stem I have trimmed has popped roots within a few days.

Did u rinse the Eco at all before u put it in cal? I know it says u don't have too but I rinsed mine a little before it went in (didn't want the black water from the bag in my tank)

I have a layer of stratum under the Eco aswell so it would be leeching iron from that aswell.

Interesting point u raise about phosphates dela, although I recently read up about phosphates (thanks to some links from cal) and apparently u can go to some serious levels of phosphates before it has any negative results on plants as a lot of the a plants DNA is made up of phosphate.

I'll check GH and KH when I get home and let u know my meters aswell cal just so we have some reference points.

Also how much kno3 are u dosing? I was dosing 1g and went to 1.5g and have had nothing but negative results since. I think I remember u saying u dose similar in your tank?
Could maybe be a nitrate issue?

 

[Caliban07]

Cal's Aquaopti 85L

Interesting posts already! The crypt that I moved was moved over 4 months ago and has stayed melted ever since.

My issues at the moment could just be stemmed from the extra nitrate I was adding but I'll be keeping an eye on the iron also. I'll detox and see the results.

I haven't had any issues with roots, every stem I have trimmed has popped roots within a few days.

Did u rinse the Eco at all before u put it in cal? I know it says u don't have too but I rinsed mine a little before it went in (didn't want the black water from the bag in my tank)

I have a layer of stratum under the Eco aswell so it would be leeching iron from that aswell.

Interesting point u raise about phosphates dela, although I recently read up about phosphates (thanks to some links from cal) and apparently u can go to some serious levels of phosphates before it has any negative results on plants as a lot of the a plants DNA is made up of phosphate.

I'll check GH and KH when I get home and let u know my meters aswell cal just so we have some reference points.

Also how much kno3 are u dosing? I was dosing 1g and went to 1.5g and have had nothing but negative results since. I think I remember u saying u dose similar in your tank?
Could maybe be a nitrate issue?

I'm dosing 1.5g in kno3. Or was. Last dose I halved and made a macro solution for half EI kno3, full EI phosphate and half for EI for magnesium. Doubt it's a nitrate issue solely but could be a combination of micros with high nitrate.

I didn't rinse the eco complete because like you said it say you don't have to. I've surely done enough 50% water changes to remove the micros from the water column no surely. I wonder if it leeches from the substrate. I keep coming home in the hope things have started to improve. The S.repens actually look a bit better but the P.erectus is just dormant. I've never had it before so I couldn't say if this is normal.

Interesting about the crypt and yes please take some readings. I'm just wondering whether or not to do an extremely toned down version of EI like aiming for 0.1ppm FE.

Edit: I could also raise the hardness by adding crushed coral to the filter and dosing extra magnesium. This might protect against toxicity. I remembered I laced my soil with crushed coral too so that may have helped in the 180.

Of course there is always the notion that we are way off here and my issues lie elsewhere.

 

[Bert2oo1]

I'm dosing 1.5g in kno3. Or was. Last dose I halved and made a macro solution for half EI kno3, full EI phosphate and half for EI for magnesium. Doubt it's a nitrate issue solely but could be a combination of micros with high nitrate.

I didn't rinse the eco complete because like you said it say you don't have to. I've surely done enough 50% water changes to remove the micros from the water column no surely. I wonder if it leeches from the substrate. I keep coming home in the hope things have started to improve. The S.repens actually look a bit better but the P.erectus is just dormant. I've never had it before so I couldn't say if this is normal.

Interesting about the crypt and yes please take some readings. I'm just wondering whether or not to do an extremely toned down version of EI like aiming for 0.1ppm FE.

I'd definate lay off the kno3. I'm a lot more heavily planted than your current setup and after 2 weeks of that extra kno3 there has been serious issues. 3 types of algae and plant growth came to a stand still almost.

In saying that I did start the 4x dose of phosphates from the same time.

I'm abit like u at the moment. Trying to retrace my steps to find out the cause of my issues.

Everything was fine apart from abit of GSA till I fiddled around. Maybe I shouldn't have worried about the GSA? Who knows.

 

[Caliban07]

I'd definate lay off the kno3. I'm a lot more heavily planted than your current setup and after 2 weeks of that extra kno3 there has been serious issues. 3 types of algae and plant growth came to a stand still almost.

In saying that I did start the 4x dose of phosphates from the same time.

I'm abit like u at the moment. Trying to retrace my steps to find out the cause of my issues.

Everything was fine apart from abit of GSA till I fiddled around. Maybe I shouldn't have worried about the GSA? Who knows.

I've just added a decent amount of crushed coral to the filter to try and raise my KH/GH. Will also add some MgSO4 tomorrow morning as I have about a 10:1 ratio in favour of calcium in my tap water. Obviously Ca and Mg or lack there of never caused and issues in the 180 litre but I'm doing this to hopefully alleviate any symptoms of micro tox. This SHOULD help if tox is what we are facing. Should help my shrimp too which btw forgot to mention, 1 jumped out when lid was off (doesn't mean anything, or dies it) and another has just disappeared. Toxicity or a coincidence?



Here is a picture of the film and the bubbles struggling to escape.

 

[Bert2oo1]

Wow. That's a thick film. Mines not that bad. Your right, there is something serious going on there.

 

[Delapool]

Cal's Aquaopti 85L

Perhaps excess phosphate blocks the uptake of another nutrient. I don't know I'm just guessing here. Are you saying you may have had micro toxicity problems? Do you think you could do a two week detox to see if you notice any difference. By detox I mean no micros. Just those from fish food. Also what is your GH and KH?

My other parameters are good I'm almost certain of it.

Good discussion. It could of been blocking something. On my water report the tap water is higher than average for chlorides (maybe as salt) and I've wondered if that has caused issues with new stem plants the fish shop swears should work. Some issue with micros somewhere.

The issues with very high phosphates on the last test I noticed after several days, the next weekly water change was removing dropped leaves and several weeks later I was replacing plants just recognising they were going backwards from this. Iron phosphates is just a guess, could well be something else.

I've never noticed toxicity issues at say 80-120ppm for nitrates, 140ppm for potassium (assuming that test kit worked) and 10ppm phosphates. So no macro issues under lower dosing I normally do.

Potassium if I don't keep to EI (or even above) then the giant hygro gets curled lower leaves and pinprick holes in lower leaves.

Iron if I dose too much the ambulia doesn't seem to like it. If I stop dosing all together then it seems some red colour is lost from red stem plants after several weeks. Others like copper (maybe) not 100% sure on what I observed. Previously I had thought I could shovel in micro ferts as well and not worry but not so sure now. For me it seems less is more.

Assuming light and CO2 are fine then I do come back to micro issues even if no idea what. The fruit trees at home struggle in our high ph / crappy sand and carbonate "soil". I dose some combination of micro ferts in a bottle to fix. I suspect it is the sulphates the trees need but dosing this bottle of combined micro ferts works so I just go with that.

I may be able to stop dosing micro ferts. The problem is PMDD is a combined fert (except for phosphate). So I would have to check nitrates which have been low but the prune on the last weekend should help. Will check readings this week. I think kh is about 5 or 6 and gh about 6 or 8.

Bearing in mind I've killed frogbit and just about every other easy to grow plant out there.

 

[Caliban07]

Good discussion. It could of been blocking something. On my water report the tap water is higher than average for chlorides (maybe as salt) and I've wondered if that has caused issues with new stem plants the fish shop swears should work. Some issue with micros somewhere.

The issues with very high phosphates on the last test I noticed after several days, the next weekly water change was removing dropped leaves and several weeks later I was replacing plants just recognising they were going backwards from this. Iron phosphates is just a guess, could well be something else.

I've never noticed toxicity issues at say 80-120ppm for nitrates, 140ppm for potassium (assuming that test kit worked) and 10ppm phosphates. So no macro issues under lower dosing I normally do.

Potassium if I don't keep to EI (or even above) then the giant hygro gets curled lower leaves and pinprick holes in lower leaves.

Iron if I dose too much the ambulia doesn't seem to like it. If I stop dosing all together then it seems some red colour is lost from red stem plants after several weeks. Others like copper (maybe) not 100% sure on what I observed. Previously I had thought I could shovel in micro ferts as well and not worry but not so sure now. For me it seems less is more.

Assuming light and CO2 are fine then I do come back to micro issues even if no idea what. The fruit trees at home struggle in our high ph / crappy sand and carbonate "soil". I dose some combination of micro ferts in a bottle to fix. I suspect it is the sulphates the trees need but dosing this bottle of combined micro ferts works so I just go with that.

I may be able to stop dosing micro ferts. The problem is PMDD is a combined fert (except for phosphate). So I would have to check nitrates which have been low but the prune on the last weekend should help. Will check readings this week. I think kh is about 5 or 6 and gh about 6 or 8.

Bearing in mind I've killed frogbit and just about every other easy to grow plant out there.

Interesting. I think you bring out a good point there being that we just don't know how these ions are interacting in the water column. Also things like iron, magnesium and AN other for example are competing for uptake and a toxicity in one will lead to a deficiency in another. Is it possible that your increased potassium dosing for the hygro is protecting against a toxicity elsewhere? I was told to keep calcium, magnesium and potassium high while I try and figure this out. Not sure why potassium yet.

I've noticed the scum forming on top has small white flakes in it here and there. It kind of looks like the white flex that are in the micro mix that are not fully dissolving. This leads me to think, because the micros are mixed dry, a teaspoon may might have more of some elements then others etc.

Also I'd like to remind i was targeting EI levels (sometimes slightly higher) for the full 85l do not accounting for substate, decor etc using a micro mix with higher volumes of traces than the product that is said to have been causing issues in the past.

My mix

Fe 8.2% (EDTA Chelated)

Mn 1.82% (EDTA Chelated)

Zn 1.16% (EDTA Chelated)

B 1.05%

Cu 0.23% (EDTA Chelated)

Mo 0.15% .

CMS+B

Total magnesium - water soluble chelated magnesium 1.5%
Copper -chelated 0.1%
Iron - chelated 7.0%
Manganese - chelated 2.0%
Molybdenum 0.06%
Zinc - chelated 0.40%
Boron 3.8%

I added some EI macros this morning and crushed coral last night. We shall see how things are when I get home.

 

[Bert2oo1]

I've been reading up on BBA because I'm getting over ran at the moment.

A lot of people are leading to believe it can be caused by excess of micro's. I found this very interesting as BBA doesn't tend to grow on my plants but loves the rocks and the substrate in my tank.

Could excess micro's also be a trigger for BBA?

 

[Caliban07]

I've been reading up on BBA because I'm getting over ran at the moment.

A lot of people are leading to believe it can be caused by excess of micro's. I found this very interesting as BBA doesn't tend to grow on my plants but loves the rocks and the substrate in my tank.

Could excess micro's also be a trigger for BBA?

Perhaps the toxicity certain toxicities cause a breakdown in plant tissues (cell walls) etc which causes the plants to leech certain triggers I really don't know but adding adding additional ferts will only aid the growth of algae once they gain a footing.

It's all very subjective at the moment. Interesting nonetheless. I could swear my problems in the 180 stopped when I stopped dosing micros.

 

[Caliban07]

Umm so I just calculated my dosing for EI trace using rotala butterfly. It's gone down from a 0.5ppm target to 0.2ppm now btw.

Don't ask me why please but I think I dosed 0.5grams three times. Not the 175mg it was supposed to be.....I think I need to do more water changes.

 

[Bert2oo1]

Umm so I just calculated my dosing for EI trace using rotala butterfly. It's gone down from a 0.5ppm target to 0.2ppm now btw.

Don't ask me why please but I think I dosed 0.5grams three times. Not the 175mg it was supposed to be.....I think I need to do more water changes.

Thanks for the heads up! I just re did my dosage and its ment to be 0.3g. I've been dosing 0.8 for 5 months!

Thank god you brought this to my attention. I would have to have a pretty serious build up by now!

Any signs of change in your tank yet?