Clear poop, bad?

[Andy Sager]

Periodic dosing...

I tend to keep a lot of fish when I am up and running LOL. Like I said though, periodic dosing as a preventative is a good choice in my opinion. Every 3-4 months I would dose.

You need to be careful about periodic dosing of certain meds. When you do something like that with an antibiotic, you create strains of bacteria that become immune to that antibiotic. (It's happened with every antibiotic on the market. That's why there are so many of them!) I've had customers that misused meds to the point that bleach and a restart up were the only solution. Even anti-paraciticals such as copper must be maintained at a thereputic level or else they are not effective.
If you suspect a problem, you want to run a complete treament course not just a "one shot deal" unless of course, the treatment is a one time treatment. There is no prophilactic treatment with an antibiotic.

I realize this thread is about a mysterious poop issue but I thought it important to clarify this comment. Periodic treatment (opposed to dosing)might be an effective method if you are constantly adding new fish to your tank. To an established tank with no new additions, it's a bad idea.

 

[bs6749]

You need to be careful about periodic dosing of certain meds. When you do something like that with an antibiotic, you create strains of bacteria that become immune to that antibiotic. (It's happened with every antibiotic on the market. That's why there are so many of them!) I've had customers that misused meds to the point that bleach and a restart up were the only solution. Even anti-paraciticals such as copper must be maintained at a thereputic level or else they are not effective.
If you suspect a problem, you want to run a complete treament course not just a "one shot deal" unless of course, the treatment is a one time treatment. There is no prophilactic treatment with an antibiotic.

I realize this thread is about a mysterious poop issue but I thought it important to clarify this comment. Periodic treatment (opposed to dosing)might be an effective method if you are constantly adding new fish to your tank. To an established tank with no new additions, it's a bad idea.

Preventative dosing is done by numerous experts in the hobby. When done properly (running the course completely and not having frequent exposure) it is an extremely effective method for preventing maladies. The main issues with antibiotics are from a misunderstanding of how they work.

Antibiotics have an intended course duration for a reason. Take it no more and no less than this duration or else problems may arise. When initially taken, an antibiotic will kill off, say 99.9% of the bacteria, while one in one thousand may have a resistance to the drug. This bacterial cell with resistance to this particular drug will then clone itself to produce more resistant organisms. Bacterial infections do not come from a single cell however, and the body can easily take care of this "threat".

It is when antibiotics are mistreated and people use them continually that it allows large numbers of resistant bacteria to build up in the system. What the VAST MAJORITY of people are unaware of however, is the fact that the concentration of bacteria that are resistant to the antibiotic decreases when you cease exposure to the drug. In other words, if you stop using the antibiotic, there will be less and less resistant bacteria with time. It takes many generations (constant exposure) for bacteria to become resistant, but it takes much less for this resistance to go away. I learned this in microbiology years ago. When some antibiotics no longer become effective, they pull them from the shelves and end up using them a few years later. Resistance is also why multiple antibiotics may be used at once (think of Neosporin with it's 3 antibiotics). If a strain of bacterial survives one antibiotic at a rate of 10%, is it highly unlikely that this 10% will also be resistant to two additional antibiotics. Knowing how and when to use antibiotics is the key to their success.

 

[Andy Sager]

They key word....

Preventative dosing is done by numerous experts in the hobby. When done properly (running the course completely and not having frequent exposure) it is an extremely effective method for preventing maladies. The main issues with antibiotics are from a misunderstanding of how they work.

Antibiotics have an intended course duration for a reason. Take it no more and no less than this duration or else problems may arise. When initially taken, an antibiotic will kill off, say 99.9% of the bacteria, while one in one thousand may have a resistance to the drug. This bacterial cell with resistance to this particular drug will then clone itself to produce more resistant organisms. Bacterial infections do not come from a single cell however, and the body can easily take care of this "threat".

It is when antibiotics are mistreated and people use them continually that it allows large numbers of resistant bacteria to build up in the system. What the VAST MAJORITY of people are unaware of however, is the fact that the concentration of bacteria that are resistant to the antibiotic decreases when you cease exposure to the drug. In other words, if you stop using the antibiotic, there will be less and less resistant bacteria with time. It takes many generations (constant exposure) for bacteria to become resistant, but it takes much less for this resistance to go away. I learned this in microbiology years ago. When some antibiotics no longer become effective, they pull them from the shelves and end up using them a few years later. Resistance is also why multiple antibiotics may be used at once (think of Neosporin with it's 3 antibiotics). If a strain of bacterial survives one antibiotic at a rate of 10%, is it highly unlikely that this 10% will also be resistant to two additional antibiotics. Knowing how and when to use antibiotics is the key to their success.

The key word here is "Done properly." More people get into trouble because they don't do things properly. Fish keeping is no different.
As I explained in my previous post, the correct method is a periodic treatment not periodic dosing.

 

[bs6749]

For me, "done properly" means taking care of the problem before it becomes a problem.

 

[jetajockey]

I usually opt for jungle parasite clear (metro/prazi). While I do think that medicated flakes are better since they are ingested and also don't require the entire tank to be treated, ordering medicated flakes versus picking up a package of parasite clear from most lfs/walmart is a lot simpler/cheaper and fairly effective. I put all of my new wild fish through it while qt'ing.

 

[bs6749]

Metronidazole added to the tank for internal flagellates has a very low success rate when compared to medicated foods that contain the same ingredient. Also, the temperature plays an important part in the success of the drug and the water should be 90 degrees for it to be effective as it is intended.

 

[Andy Sager]

For me...

For me, "done properly" means taking care of the problem before it becomes a problem.

For me, Done Properly means preventing the problem. Good husbandry does that.

 

[jetajockey]

Metronidazole added to the tank for internal flagellates has a very low success rate when compared to medicated foods that contain the same ingredient. Also, the temperature plays an important part in the success of the drug and the water should be 90 degrees for it to be effective as it is intended.

That's interesting. I didn't know about the temperature thing. I usually give 2-3 dosing intervals to new arrivals and it seems to knock out anything they might've had.

 

[bs6749]

For me, Done Properly means preventing the problem. Good husbandry does that.

Good husbandry and care-taking of fish does not solve the issue alone, though I agree that proper maintenance, inspections, etc. allow for a vast majority of problems to be prevented. Importing wilds and purchasing new fish can potentially all be a new "set of problems". Prior to obtaining these fish, hobbyists likely know very little about what is going on with them and what they have been through. Shipping is stressful and as you may know, stressful conditions open up fish to being more prone to illness and disease. Good husbandry alone cannot prevent fish from becoming ill in this situation, and I would much rather treat these fish over the course of 2-3 weeks with dewormers, metro flakes, and dip baths than to risk the health of the rest of my fish. I follow what is done by numerous hobbyists who have many more years of experience than myself. So far their methods have not failed me, nor have they caused any problems.

I feel like this thread has gotten off topic from where the OP intended it to go, so with respect to him and anybody else that is viewing this and gaining information I will not make any more replies in this thread that do not directly relate to his questions.

 

[Gboy66]

Lol its ok guys..

Buying the meds now, i think i will get both dewormers?

 

[bs6749]

I would get both dewormers.

 

[Gboy66]

I would get both dewormers.

Will do.

The guy at the shop (i just called) said it might not be worms because that will happen over a period of months? He has been doing awesome until last week, so is it not worms?

He things the angels are constipated, but they wont eat the peas!!! i am at a loss. They both just sit and stare at the back wall all day..what could this mean?

I dont want to loose my buddies. The one ive had for a pretty long time:'(

 

[Andy Sager]

Point taken

Good husbandry and care-taking of fish does not solve the issue alone, though I agree that proper maintenance, inspections, etc. allow for a vast majority of problems to be prevented. Importing wilds and purchasing new fish can potentially all be a new "set of problems". Prior to obtaining these fish, hobbyists likely know very little about what is going on with them and what they have been through. Shipping is stressful and as you may know, stressful conditions open up fish to being more prone to illness and disease. Good husbandry alone cannot prevent fish from becoming ill in this situation, and I would much rather treat these fish over the course of 2-3 weeks with dewormers, metro flakes, and dip baths than to risk the health of the rest of my fish. I follow what is done by numerous hobbyists who have many more years of experience than myself. So far their methods have not failed me, nor have they caused any problems.

I feel like this thread has gotten off topic from where the OP intended it to go, so with respect to him and anybody else that is viewing this and gaining information I will not make any more replies in this thread that do not directly relate to his questions.

Good luck with your treatment Gboy66

Re your fish facing the back of the tank:
A long time ago I had a situation where my tank of Angelfish was doing the same thing. All facing the back of the tank. Since they were infront of a window, I just assumed they were looking out at the world. I told my mentor about this and he told me to check the PH. It turned out that it had fallen and the fish were reacting to it. He told me that Angels are like the canary in the coal mine. When things start to go south, they tell you. Check your PH before you start medicating.

 

[bs6749]

If you think that they are constipated, you don't need to use the dewormers, and he is most likely right that it would occur over a longer period of time and not in a few days. It wouldn't hurt to do a bath with epsom salt for 20 minutes, which should help the fish to expel the excrement built up inside. I'm not sure on the amount needed per gallon, but that is what I would use.

 

[Gboy66]

If you think that they are constipated, you don't need to use the dewormers, and he is most likely right that it would occur over a longer period of time and not in a few days. It wouldn't hurt to do a bath with epsom salt for 20 minutes, which should help the fish to expel the excrement built up inside. I'm not sure on the amount needed per gallon, but that is what I would use.

Hoe do you do this? I have tetras and a peacock eel (no scales) so would this be bad?

 

[Gboy66]

Good luck with your treatment Gboy66

Re your fish facing the back of the tank:
A long time ago I had a situation where my tank of Angelfish was doing the same thing. All facing the back of the tank. Since they were infront of a window, I just assumed they were looking out at the world. I told my mentor about this and he told me to check the PH. It turned out that it had fallen and the fish were reacting to it. He told me that Angels are like the canary in the coal mine. When things start to go south, they tell you. Check your PH before you start medicating.

Ill test ph!! Right now!! Thanks, i hate it when they do this! They are my little entergetic buddies..not the sick fish!

 

[Gboy66]

Came up with 8-8.2...my tank has usually been that high! i guess its not ph

 

[jlk]

Hoe do you do this? I have tetras and a peacock eel (no scales) so would this be bad?

You will need to do this seperately as a bath. A general recommendation is 1 teaspoon of epsom salts per gallon of treated, temp-matched water. Place the fish in the bath & observe closely. Wait @15mins or until the fish poops- which ever comes first & then return the fish to the tank. If the fish shows any signs of distress or begins to roll/flip over, immediately remove the fish & return to the tank. Epsom salts are a pretty potent laxative, so if theres any issue of constipation, this will help to alleviate it. I only have experience doing this with goldies, so I would do a bit of looking to make sure there are no issues for angels before trying this.

 

[Gboy66]

You will need to do this seperately as a bath. A general recommendation is 1 teaspoon of epsom salts per gallon of treated, temp-matched water. Place the fish in the bath & observe closely. Wait @15mins or until the fish poops- which ever comes first & then return the fish to the tank. If the fish shows any signs of distress or begins to roll/flip over, immediately remove the fish & return to the tank. Epsom salts are a pretty potent laxative, so if theres any issue of constipation, this will help to alleviate it. I only have experience doing this with goldies, so I would do a bit of looking to make sure there are no issues for angels before trying this.

Ok i will see if i can find that salt!

Sounds like an awful thing to have to do though Poor guy. It is tank water? Or just tap water that it is put into?

 

[jlk]

Any local drugstore carries epsom salts- pretty common. Using some water out of the tank is probably best or you can just use a 5g bucket of tap water that has been conditioned & temp-matched. Just make sure the salts are completely dissolved first before adding the fish for the bath. And watch closely!