Considering switching from fishless to fish in....

[pugmom]

background -

29 gallon, aquaclear 50, sand sub, temp 84, bubbly thingy. I added plants a couple weeks ago to hopefully wrap up the cycle, but they are 95% gone now because they died.

Added ammonia june 3rd - typical cycle, started seeing nitrites june 23rd. Nitrates came soon after that (not much delay here, so I thought I was rolling....)

Since june 24th I have been battling my nitrite spike.
I have done large PWC multiple times, which brings things down to readable levels, only to go up and stay high (nitrites 5+) with the next ammonia addition.

Ammonia converts quickly.
Current state - sat large PWC, nitrites 0.25, some nitrates (10-20) added 2 ppm ammonia.
today nitrites 5+ nitrates 40ish. added another ammonia dose as I was 0 again.
ph is fine. never been below 7.8

I am getting frustrated, I know I must be close, but I haven't seen any nitrite drops without a water change

So if I do some large water changes to get nitrite out, I should be able to switch to fish in and just keep an eye on things correct? I am assuming that because I have a fair amount of nitrates that I have some conversion going on, correct???

I am usually patient and am trying to do everything "right" but my family is wearing on me with the repeated questions of why I am going through all this when so and so and such and such's fish are just fine.....

 

[Nimo]

Switching from a fishless to fish in cycle is asking for dead fish in my opinion. Just because such and such is doing fine doesn't mean they have healthy happy fish. The idea of doing the fishless cycle is to insure that you have a happy healthy environment for the fish when you get them. I think it would be allot more discouraging if you tried to add fish to early and end up loosing them to nitrite poisoning, ammonia poisoning or loosing a fish later after your family has fallen in love with it because its life span was seriously decreased because of these toxins. The cycle is a hard thing to get thru it takes time and patience but it is well worth it in the end.

 

[Samzter]

Switching from a fishless to fish in cycle is asking for dead fish in my opinion. Just because such and such is doing fine doesn't mean they have healthy happy fish. The idea of doing the fishless cycle is to insure that you have a happy healthy environment for the fish when you get them. I think it would be allot more discouraging if you tried to add fish to early and end up loosing them to nitrite poisoning, ammonia poisoning or loosing a fish later after your family has fallen in love with it because its life span was seriously decreased because of these toxins. The cycle is a hard thing to get thru it takes time and patience but it is well worth it in the end.

Yeah i do agree. I would stick with a fish less cycle since you will have less fish deaths.

 

[pugmom]

I am not throwing my filter out the window, I already have a bunch of established ammonia converting bacteria and I would assume I have some of the nitrite--->nitrate bacteria since I have been off the charts in nitrate a few times now before a large water change - correct?

If I stock slow (which I was going to do anyway) wouldn't I be most of the way through a fish-in cycle and thus minimize any deaths/damage? Especially if I am anal with checking my levels/pwc?

If I already have some of each bacteria, would it be equivalent to a mini cycle I would have later on anyway once I add more fish after the first batch?

Just trying to understand vs. the "all your fish are going to die notion" with fish-in cycling....

 

[Nimo]

You wouldn't have to throw out your filter media you just add used media in with it.
And starting with a fishless cycle is allot different than starting with fish in.
If you had started with fish in they can adapt as things evolve in the cycle all tho water changes have to be kept up with for their health. If you put fish into a tank that is not fully cycled they have no time to adapt to the water conditions and it can kill them rather quickly.
An incomplete cycle is not the same as a mini cycle. You can still get extremely high levels of nitrites, ammonia and nitrates because the cycle is not done yet, a mini cycle is just what it says it is a small fluctuation in the chemical balance that can most of the time be corrected with one water change. An incomplete cycle is not at all the same

 

[00youknowit00]

Personally I've never done a fishless cycle with fw. I have had up to 6 fw tanks at one time and did fishin on all of them without seeding. Its completely doable without loosing fish, it just takes a lot more work. If you really wanna switch IMO do a 100% (as much as you can) pwc. Once ammo and nitrite are 0-.5 (perferably 0) you can put a couple of fish, like 2(depending on what they are). Then monitor ammo and nitrite and if either get above 0.5ppm do a 50% pwc.

What kind of fish do you wanna add first? Any other questions just ask.

 

[pugmom]

Thanks Nimo - I appreciate the input. I am concerned about nitrite spikes to some degree, but not ammonia since I can convert 4 ppm in about 6 hours, which I am guessing is more than the fish will put in i know I wouldn't need to throw out the media, I guess I was just saying that there should be a bunch of bacteria in there already to start things to make the spikes smaller?

Thanks 00 - the only way I would possibly attempt it is if I can get my nitrites down to very, very low with PWC. (ammonia is zero shortly after ammonia addition)

probably would start with zebra danios/glofish....

 

[00youknowit00]

Thanks Nimo - I appreciate the input. I am concerned about nitrite spikes to some degree, but not ammonia since I can convert 4 ppm in about 6 hours, which I am guessing is more than the fish will put in i know I wouldn't need to throw out the media, I guess I was just saying that there should be a bunch of bacteria in there already to start things to make the spikes smaller?

Thanks 00 - the only way I would possibly attempt it is if I can get my nitrites down to very, very low with PWC. (ammonia is zero shortly after ammonia addition)

probably would start with zebra danios/glofish....

If you do a 100% pwc you'll be fine. The danios will be fine. Just don't let ammo and nitrite get over 0.5ppm and you'll be fine. Youre using liquid tests right? Not strips? Strips are no good.

 

[FlyAnglerFishKeeper]

Let me preface this by saying I'm somewhat new to all of this. I've had an aquarium before, but that was years ago. *(Starting another one this week, fish-in)

However, common sense tells me that you can either try a fish-in cycle and see if that works for your aquarium, or never have any fish. ......Not doing a fish-in because some may die isn't really an alternative to never getting levels right, and therefore never putting in fish. I mean, if you're just going to have a water feature with no fish......

? ya know?
I'd try the fish.

 

[pugmom]

yep api master liquid test kit. I have done about 3-4 ~90% PWC in order to try to get my cycle moving and have been able to get nitrites down to 0.25 every time. Because I am a spaz, I can see doing a 90% followed by a 50% or so if I attempt this....

 

[00youknowit00]

Let me preface this by saying I'm somewhat new to all of this. I've had an aquarium before, but that was years ago. *(Starting another one this week, fish-in)

However, common sense tells me that you can either try a fish-in cycle and see if that works for your aquarium, or never have any fish. ......Not doing a fish-in because some may die isn't really an alternative to never getting levels right, and therefore never putting in fish. I mean, if you're just going to have a water feature with no fish......

? ya know?
I'd try the fish.

My thought too, I've always done fishin because I don't wanna look at a tank with no fish.

And, if done right, you wont lose any fish.

 

[pugmom]

I mean, if you're just going to have a water feature with no fish......

? ya know?
I'd try the fish.

it is a lovely water feature though - lol. Good luck with your cycle!

 

[00youknowit00]

yep api master liquid test kit. I have done about 3-4 ~90% PWC in order to try to get my cycle moving and have been able to get nitrites down to 0.25 every time. Because I am a spaz, I can see doing a 90% followed by a 50% or so if I attempt this....

Do 2 90%, or enough to get the nitrite 0. Then get a couple danios and monitor away. You'll be fine if you keep the levels right. You just have to stock slowly after the levels settle.

Let me find an article for you..

*edit*
Here you go, this'll get you though it easily.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/fish-in-cycling-step-over-into-the-dark-side-176446.html

 

[Nimo]

Let me preface this by saying I'm somewhat new to all of this. I've had an aquarium before, but that was years ago. *(Starting another one this week, fish-in)

However, common sense tells me that you can either try a fish-in cycle and see if that works for your aquarium, or never have any fish. ......Not doing a fish-in because some may die isn't really an alternative to never getting levels right, and therefore never putting in fish. I mean, if you're just going to have a water feature with no fish......

? ya know?
I'd try the fish.

Not saying that fish can never be added just that the tank needs to be fully cycled first after starting with a fishless cycle.
Fish in cycle is also very successful but allot more work to keep the fish healthy. As I said before a fish in cycle is allot different, the fish adapt as the water changes.
My opinion is unless the ammonia and nitrites are zero after starting with fishless cycle then it is kinda like putting a plastic bag over your head and smothering your self. The ammonia and nitrites so the fish from bring able to breath properly so if they have had no time to adapt to the water conditions then they smother basically.

 

[Nimo]

Do 2 90%, or enough to get the nitrite 0. Then get a couple danios and monitor away. You'll be fine if you keep the levels right. You just have to stock slowly after the levels settle.

Let me find an article for you..

*edit*
Here you go, this'll get you though it easily.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/fish-in-cycling-step-over-into-the-dark-side-176446.html

I agree nitrites need to be zero and then fish can be added slowly and then gonna be looking at daily water changes and sometimes multiple water changes daily to keep water safe for fish

 

[pugmom]

I agree nitrites need to be zero and then fish can be added slowly and then gonna be looking at daily water changes and sometimes multiple water changes daily to keep water safe for fish

Right, that is where I was getting confused on what you were saying before. I would not ever attempt to put any fish in with high levels. If I can get the levels to zero then it should be kind of like doing a fish in cycle with a (partially) seeded filter, correct?

 

[00youknowit00]

I agree nitrites need to be zero and then fish can be added slowly and then gonna be looking at daily water changes and sometimes multiple water changes daily to keep water safe for fish

Exactly.

On a side note: IMO I wouldn't get GloFish, they're dyed to be those colors, and because of that naturally not as healthy.. All they are is chemically dyed zebra danios. All IMO.

 

[00youknowit00]

Right, that is where I was getting confused on what you were saying before. I would not ever attempt to put any fish in with high levels. If I can get the levels to zero then it should be kind of like doing a fish in cycle with a (partially) seeded filter, correct?

Correct. It'll go pretty quick due to you being half done already. And the bioload wont be so high. I'd get 3 of the danios till it completly cycles. And remember, stock SLOWLY

 

[FlyAnglerFishKeeper]

I don't think glofish are dyed. I think they are genetically mutated. Just sayin'. And no, I wasn't suggesting just dumping fish in there. I was thinking more like "start over with fish-in" and go from there.

 

[00youknowit00]

I don't think glofish are dyed. I think they are genetically mutated. Just sayin'. And no, I wasn't suggesting just dumping fish in there. I was thinking more like "start over with fish-in" and go from there.

Like I said, IMO. I could be wrong actually I just googled it and it says the ones now aren't, that the offspring are born like that now. They were made flourecent(sp?) by protien from marine fish I believe..?

*edit*
Btw, completly stand corrected. Not died, flourecent protien. Should've looked it up first instead of believing the 'rumors'. My bad