Cycling a tank - is it necessary

[pip walters]

Indeed, that's a fact. regardless of how long or longer it may take. 4ppm is a general figure that ensures safety for your fish once added.

I understand that, but why waste time cycling a tank to a point where, once you add fish - even a full stocking - a vast amount of bacteria will die off anyway?

The consequence of billions of dead bacteria could actually be detrimental to the fish.

I wonder if any members have done a fishless cycle and still encountered problems after adding fish?

 

[pip walters]

!! Would that be in a high oxygen environment that you get optimal conditions? I've seen a lot of work on seeding, etc to speed up the cycle but not so much on improving the environmental conditions for them. Or am I just over thinking it and they don't really care. I'll have my ABBA CDs ready to just in case....

Conditions of saturated oxygen (100% and above.... yes you can have more than 100% dissolved oxygen!) mean that aerobic bacteria can convert ammonia more quickly and multiply quickest, so as close to 100% as possible would be optimal. The more bacteria there are, the more oxygen will be used and the less oxygen will be available for other aquatic organisms.

 

[pip walters]

Just want to comment that I see 2 very different recommendations when setting up a display or a quarantine tank.

For the display: wait for the cycle to compete before adding any fish . Use expensive equipment etc...

For the quarantine: simply add a sponge filter that as been sitting in an established tank for a week and you are ready to go.

Why the double standard?

In my experience setting up various tanks putting media from an established system is the bulletproof way to start a tank. You just have to monitor closely your system and add livestock slowly and scale filtration capacity accordingly, but trust the bacteria: they multiply fast.

This is the thing, there is no fixed 'norm' it would seem. IMO, there are more exeptions than rules!

Many may be surprised, even shocked and some almost certainly appauled to learn that, in the tanks where I work, we keep 120 guppies in 70l with a sponge filter fashioned from a section of car washing sponge. Do we suffer problems? Now and then we suffer some losses, but no more than the other systems with mechanical and biological filtration. And don't forget, stock levels in each tank decrease and increase on a weekly basis - so no balance!

Fish are far more tolerant of the conditions we offer them than we appear to be ourselves!

 

[pip walters]

Pip you are a brave man for opening up this subject. I have been in the hobby about as long as you and I am in complete agreement with you, I do fish in cycling. I think fish less cycling is a waste of times and does no more for your fish than if you add them a few at a times. I fish less cycled tank does a mini cycle when a bunch of fish are added. A fish in cycle does the same thing. Start slow and don't add to many fish at once and you will have happy long living fish.

I love the ability to gain information online but when a certain subject is preached long enough on forums it becomes fact like fish less cycle is the best and more humane way.

Thank you. Wise words

I don't actually keep fish myself - I had an aquarium once, but I have worked with fish all my life.

I agree about the preaching. The sad thing is, on this type of forum, so-called facts are often preached by folk that don't really understand themselves what they are preaching and don't follow up with any facts or figures, so how can newcomers to the hobby ever hope to gain sound knowledge?... hence my signature! My aim was to give another perspective using the scientific knowledge I have gained. It is apparent already that some minds won't be changed, but that is fine - if something works for you and always has, then great.... doesn't mean it is the only way! We should never stop learning.

I knew it might cause controversy, but having worked in the fishery management industry after 13 years in the pet and aquatic retail trade, my eyes have opened and my mind changed by scientific facts.

Things that the aquatic trade would have you believe are occasionally inaccurate and sometimes even untruthful. E.G. Wheat germ koi sticks/pellets are no more digestible in the winter than any other sticks/pellets! and mid autumn to early winter is the best time to stock a garden pond - not throughout the summer as is tradition.

I find terms such as 'new tank syndrome' unhelpful and spent much of my time in the pet shop trying to get people to understand how their filters worked and why they should add a couple of fish at a time. I think terms like this just give some people, who think keeping fish will be easy, an excuse when things go wrong!

 

[Wy Renegade]

Just want to comment that I see 2 very different recommendations when setting up a display or a quarantine tank.

For the display: wait for the cycle to compete before adding any fish . Use expensive equipment etc...

For the quarantine: simply add a sponge filter that as been sitting in an established tank for a week and you are ready to go.

Why the double standard?

Keep in mind that a display tank is set up to house a large number of fish over a long period of time.

The quarantine tank is set-up to house a small number of fish (typically 1 or 2 at the most) over a very short period of time.

Two different purposes means two different standards. Sponge filters have been around for a long time and were proven to be an efficient means of filtration with smaller fish loads a long time ago. The typical sponge filter in available in the hobby is not capable of supporting a large bioload and is generally considered unsightly to look at. Hence why it is not typically recommended for use in a display tank.

 

[Blenny]

You are right.

That is why this was at the end of my post:

In my experience setting up various tanks putting media from an established system is the bulletproof way to start a tank. You just have to monitor closely your system and add livestock slowly and scale filtration capacity accordingly, but trust the bacteria: they multiply fast.

 

[sixtyfou]

This is one of the more informative threads I've read. I have to say a lot of the cycling information ignores the realities of life. I've keep fish before. When I got back into it a month ago I went way over board fast. I have three tanks now. I have a chemistry background, and I love to read. This fishless cycling stuff on the internet is absurd.

I feel SO bad for the single mother that wants to set up a tank for her kid's birthday. She has a limit budget and time. The fishless cycle just isn't going to work for her, but that's the info she'll find through Google. If she dares to follow those complex directions she'll probably kill the fish she was barely able to afford. Maybe it's "inhumane" but the old way works. Get a Danio, change the water a lot, and slowly add stock. Most people don't get started with $1,000 budget.

 

[Delapool]

From what I've seen: fish-in can be fine, but probably more suited to experienced fish-keepers.

For beginners, fish-less is less stressful, less work, and if they mess up, nothing dies.

Nicely sums up I think. My liquid test kit has a useful guide book and is at the top of my needed list. Other stuff I can be just indulging myself where I couldn't before.

 

[sixtyfou]

I disagree, I think fish in, slow stock, and lots of water changes is easier.

I have fancy test equipment, and that monitoring and control is a pain in the butt.

 

[molliwopp]

I disagree, I think fish in, slow stock, and lots of water changes is easier.

I have fancy test equipment, and that monitoring and control is a pain in the butt.

Your post is confusing, ''and lots of water changes is easier'', ''that monitoring and control is a pain in the butt''

How is changing lots of water in a fishin as opposed to almost no water changes in fishless easier? Also there is little to no more monitoring in fishless than there is in fishin. If you're doing a fishin cycle humanely you should be checking for ammonia daily anyway.

 

[sixtyfou]

I can do a 25% water change in the same time it takes me to test all those samples.

 

[sixtyfou]

When I start a new tank, I change do 20% water changes regularly. I can do them in about 4 minutes. That's what they do in the lab.

 

[molliwopp]

When I start a new tank, I change do 20% water changes regularly. I can do them in about 4 minutes. That's what they do in the lab.

In the lab, what do you mean? How is doing 20% regularly adequate without testing or knowing the ammonia nitrite readings in the tank?

 

[sixtyfou]

In most labs they don't test all the tanks all the time. They make sure the precursor water is decent and change the water a lot.

 

[sixtyfou]

What do you do if the test comes back bad?

Change the water.​

 

[Delapool]

Yeess but the tests give me an idea of my required change rate. Today I took out 10 buckets of water and snuck the hose in for a weekly change. A month back I had a sky high ammonia and was doing daily changes. That really is a pain The fish looked fine but the test picked it up.

 

[sixtyfou]

Testing is AWESOME. Everyone should test, lot and often.

However when in doubt. Do a water change. I keep 10 gallon of room temp declorinated, balanced water on hand. If I'm short on time, I just change the water. Screw the test.

 

[Delapool]

This is one of the more informative threads I've read. I have to say a lot of the cycling information ignores the realities of life. I've keep fish before. When I got back into it a month ago I went way over board fast. I have three tanks now. I have a chemistry background, and I love to read. This fishless cycling stuff on the internet is absurd.
.

Sorry, missing something here - could you expand on why absurd? Is it the method itself or is it not on the Internet correctly or something else?

 

[sixtyfou]

It's more complicated than the general public is going to be able to follow unless they get really into it. Most people are going to get lost in the discussion and give up.

 

[Delapool]

Testing is AWESOME. Everyone should test, lot and often.

However when in doubt. Do a water change. I keep 10 gallon of room temp declorinated, balanced water on hand. If I'm short on time, I just change the water. Screw the test.

yes, I knew I would be in for a water change.