I recently started to cycle my 55 gal. aquarium. The lfs lady said that I would need 8 damsels in order to make enough amonia, nitrite, nitrate, and bacteria to cycle my tank. Upon her recommendations, I bought two damsels to start and she told me to come back in a week to get two more and so on. I really dont want to purchase 8 damsels in order to cycle my tank because I dont want a tank full of damsels, and not have enough room for other fish. My question is, can I cycle a tank using using just two or three damsels? Will they create enough waste in order to eventually make enough bacteria to support other species of fish? I have had my tank set up for two weeks and put the damsels in 6 days ago. I have been testing my water every day and none of the tests are changing. Amonia is good, nitite is good, and so on. I am looking for a spike and drop, but its not happening. I also forgot to mention that I have three pounds of live rock. Any suggestions?
cycling and damsels
- Thread starter metree7
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clark4feathers
Aquarium Advice Freak
I agree with Mike...doo the humane way you will feel much better about your tank. It really does work well...
Kurt_Nelson
Aquarium Advice Addict
And it doesn't cost you a cent if you plan to have shrimp for dinner that night! Take the damsels back...
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clark4feathers
Aquarium Advice Freak
May not look as pretty, that shrimp will do a much better job.
I totally understand your point about being humane. As of now, I am in a situation where I have two damsels (that cannot be returned), and I am trying to cycle the tank with just two fish, because I dont want to purchase more. is it possible? I am also willing to wait a longer period of time to cycle with two versus eight.
pat8you
Aquarium Advice Addict
You can cycle with just the two damsels you have now. Get an ammonia test kit so you can keep an eye on the ammonia levels. If they get too high then do a water change to bring it back down. It will cycle a little slower this way but you will have a better chance of not losing the fish. Also, feed every other day and try to feed only as much as they can eat in a minute or two. Lowering the amount of food put in the tank will help keep your ammonia levels down to a resonable level.
Kurt_Nelson
Aquarium Advice Addict
So the fish store that sold them to you - solely to cycle your tank - will not take them back when you're done with them?!! Like you said... who wants eight damsels (let alone 2) in a 55g tank. I'd even go out on a limb and say 8 damsels in a 55g is way too many, even if you wanted damsels!!
That's really a bad deal if the LFS won't take them back - even when you're done with your cycle. (And if they will take them back when your cycle is complete, I'd be magically "done" with my cycle and return them!)
As Pat mentioned, 2 damsels will cycle that tank. In the mean time, I'd find a new LFS. Seems like if a store if going to tell folks to use their damsels to cycle a tank, they should at least take them back for *some* amount of credit when you're done.
Just noticed you mentioned 3 lbs of live rock. Is that a typo? Only 3 pounds? If that's correct, what other biological filtration do you have going with the tank. Any hang-on back filters, bioballs, etc?
That's really a bad deal if the LFS won't take them back - even when you're done with your cycle. (And if they will take them back when your cycle is complete, I'd be magically "done" with my cycle and return them!)
As Pat mentioned, 2 damsels will cycle that tank. In the mean time, I'd find a new LFS. Seems like if a store if going to tell folks to use their damsels to cycle a tank, they should at least take them back for *some* amount of credit when you're done.
Just noticed you mentioned 3 lbs of live rock. Is that a typo? Only 3 pounds? If that's correct, what other biological filtration do you have going with the tank. Any hang-on back filters, bioballs, etc?
Kurt,
To answer your question about the live rock: It is not a typo. The same lfs lady said that I could add live rock as I go, and not to worry about putting a lot at the same time. Having said that, I also have a fluval 305 canister filter, which has biomax in it. Would the bacteria that is in the live rock, eventually grow on the biomax?
To answer your question about the live rock: It is not a typo. The same lfs lady said that I could add live rock as I go, and not to worry about putting a lot at the same time. Having said that, I also have a fluval 305 canister filter, which has biomax in it. Would the bacteria that is in the live rock, eventually grow on the biomax?
Kurt_Nelson
Aquarium Advice Addict
With only 3 lbs of rock in a 55g, your rock is not really going to be housing much of your biological population. It will end up living wherever it needs to... in the sand, on your glass, in a cannister... that's why I asked about the cannister. Yes, the biomax will end up housing a fair amount of bacteria.
Adding live rock as you go is OK, but if you do add live rock to an already cycled tank you have to make sure the rock is fully cured prior to putting it in your tank. So that means you have to buy fully cured rock from a LFS, or cure it yourself outside of your tank. Anything that is not fully cured will have enough die-off from stuff on the rock that it could cause another cycle to begin. That assumes you're putting a fair amount of rock in. I can't imagine 2-3 lbs would amount to anything, but then again I suppose it depends on the rock.
Adding live rock as you go is OK, but if you do add live rock to an already cycled tank you have to make sure the rock is fully cured prior to putting it in your tank. So that means you have to buy fully cured rock from a LFS, or cure it yourself outside of your tank. Anything that is not fully cured will have enough die-off from stuff on the rock that it could cause another cycle to begin. That assumes you're putting a fair amount of rock in. I can't imagine 2-3 lbs would amount to anything, but then again I suppose it depends on the rock.
The rock that I put in is fully cured. As far as I understood about the cycling process involving live rock, I thought that I could put in a couple of pounds of lr, which houses bacteria. This in turn, would allow the bacteria to grow and expand throughout the tank, biomax, substrate, base-rock and so on. Basically I thought that it would be beneficial to use a small amount of bacteria to seed the tank, instead of not starting with any bacteria at all.
Another thing that is getting me confused is that I have been testing my water from the very beginning. Throughout these past two weeks, I have maintained 0 amonia, 0 nitrite, my ph is good, yet, my nirtate levels have been rising and now they are at around 30 ppm. I have been waiting for my amonia to spike, then for my nitrite to spike, and then for my nitrate to go up, in that order, but it isn't the case. Should I do a pwc when it reaches 40 ppm, and if so will this affect the cycling process? I didnt expect to get such nitrate readings so early in the setup process.
Another thing that is getting me confused is that I have been testing my water from the very beginning. Throughout these past two weeks, I have maintained 0 amonia, 0 nitrite, my ph is good, yet, my nirtate levels have been rising and now they are at around 30 ppm. I have been waiting for my amonia to spike, then for my nitrite to spike, and then for my nitrate to go up, in that order, but it isn't the case. Should I do a pwc when it reaches 40 ppm, and if so will this affect the cycling process? I didnt expect to get such nitrate readings so early in the setup process.
AdamHorton
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I went through this process about a year ago with my 150G setup -- I originally used damsels to cycle the tank, and never saw any readings that indicated a cycle took place. I never figured out whether or not the tank had actually cycled (I had very few fish for a 150G tank, so the ammonia/nitrite could have been very diluted), but a couple months later the tank crashed and almost all of the fish I had in there died. All of this with a similar setup to what you're describing now.
I ended up starting everything from scratch again, and this time I did a fishless cycle (I tried raw shrimp and didn't get anything. I would suggest using pure ammonia, since it's a lot easier to control the exact amount you use and verify for sure that your tank is cycled). Fishless cycling is also much quicker -- mine took only two weeks from when I started using pure ammonia, but there's no way you could keep damsels in there during that process. I have had no problems whatsoever since, and it's been almost a year.
Another advantage to doing it this way are that you don't have to buy live rock, but instead you can buy base rock for much cheaper. IMO, you will save much more money on rock than you did buying these two damsels you have now. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find a fish store that would take them back for free -- the only reason to keep the damsels at this point would be if you wanted them. It sounds like you don't, but in my case I did, so I kept them in a quarantine tank for almost 6 months while I stocked the tank I was rebuilding.
You don't have to take it, but my advice is this: take the damsels back to a fish store, and don't count on getting any money for them. Buy as much base rock as you want and add it to the tank. Put enough ammonia in the tank to get it to 2 ppm or so and track how long it takes for your readings to show 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. If that takes less than 24 hours, your tank is cycled; if not, then begin your fishless cycle.
I ended up starting everything from scratch again, and this time I did a fishless cycle (I tried raw shrimp and didn't get anything. I would suggest using pure ammonia, since it's a lot easier to control the exact amount you use and verify for sure that your tank is cycled). Fishless cycling is also much quicker -- mine took only two weeks from when I started using pure ammonia, but there's no way you could keep damsels in there during that process. I have had no problems whatsoever since, and it's been almost a year.
Another advantage to doing it this way are that you don't have to buy live rock, but instead you can buy base rock for much cheaper. IMO, you will save much more money on rock than you did buying these two damsels you have now. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find a fish store that would take them back for free -- the only reason to keep the damsels at this point would be if you wanted them. It sounds like you don't, but in my case I did, so I kept them in a quarantine tank for almost 6 months while I stocked the tank I was rebuilding.
You don't have to take it, but my advice is this: take the damsels back to a fish store, and don't count on getting any money for them. Buy as much base rock as you want and add it to the tank. Put enough ammonia in the tank to get it to 2 ppm or so and track how long it takes for your readings to show 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. If that takes less than 24 hours, your tank is cycled; if not, then begin your fishless cycle.
pat8you
Aquarium Advice Addict
I'm going to add a little to this. What i say may not be kurts opinion and i'm not trying to say he is wrong. I think you can add rock slowly over time with out having a problem. You just can't add to much at once. If you transport rock out of the water you will get some die off that can cause the re-cycle kurt is talking about. If you went out and picked up 50 lbs worth of rock and had a hour ride home you might see another small cycle because of it. If you picked up 10-15lbs at a time it will be fine. I think the best option for you would be to buy dry (aka base) rock like Adam mentioned. It is much cheaper then live rock and will cure in the tank over time.
Adam,
This amonia that you speak of, I this something that can be found at the lfs, and if not, where can I find it? I could see how the lfs would want to take the damsels back for free and I dont mind. I do mind, if I have to take the live rock back, and not get anything back for it. I dont really have anywhere to put it, in the mean time, if I was to take your cycling suggestion. I am thinking that the live rock would not survive the amonia cycling process.
This amonia that you speak of, I this something that can be found at the lfs, and if not, where can I find it? I could see how the lfs would want to take the damsels back for free and I dont mind. I do mind, if I have to take the live rock back, and not get anything back for it. I dont really have anywhere to put it, in the mean time, if I was to take your cycling suggestion. I am thinking that the live rock would not survive the amonia cycling process.
The nitrifying bacteria on the LR feeds on the ammonia and nitrites. You would not have to take it back as it`s curing and the tank is cycling.
AdamHorton
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Most LFS won't carry ammonia. They want you to buy their "skip the cycle" products that are more expensive and don't work. When I tried to find ammonia, I had a tough time finding the right kind -- it's very important to find ammonia with nothing added, particularly without surfactants (soap additives). I found mine at ACE Hardware -- you can check the ammonia at the store by shaking the bottle. If it doesn't foam up at all, it's the right stuff. If there are any bubbles, then it's got surfactants, and you shouldn't use it -- it can really mess up your tank for a long time.
melosu is right -- there's no need to take your live rock back. However, there is no need to buy more live rock at this point. Any rock you buy right now should be base rock. This will be the best time by far to buy your rock since base rock does you just as much good as live rock, and base rock is much cheaper. That's why I suggest you buy as much as you want now if you can fit it in your budget. What I did was completely remove my bio-balls (your canister filter) entirely and use the rock for biological filtration. I have 250 pounds in my 150G tank, so anywhere between 50-100 lbs total rock would be a good range for you to aim for if you wanted to go that route.
melosu is right -- there's no need to take your live rock back. However, there is no need to buy more live rock at this point. Any rock you buy right now should be base rock. This will be the best time by far to buy your rock since base rock does you just as much good as live rock, and base rock is much cheaper. That's why I suggest you buy as much as you want now if you can fit it in your budget. What I did was completely remove my bio-balls (your canister filter) entirely and use the rock for biological filtration. I have 250 pounds in my 150G tank, so anywhere between 50-100 lbs total rock would be a good range for you to aim for if you wanted to go that route.
I would not feel very confortable with making my own judgements and decisions on wether or not an amonia product was safe for my tank or not. On the other hand, if I knew the exact brand that you used, then I would feel alot more confident in the process.
AdamHorton
Aquarium Advice FINatic
It's the ACE Hardware store brand. I can post a picture of the bottle tonight when I get home if you want...
AdamHorton
Aquarium Advice FINatic
After a quick (Instant, 
) Google search, I found this...
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g129/jmmathis0808/ammb.jpg
) Google search, I found this...http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g129/jmmathis0808/ammb.jpg
Thanks, I will have to check and see if my local Ace store carries it. If I am undersatnding you correctly, I am only using this product in order to check to see if my tank is cycled. If I put enough amonia (2ppm), and wait 24 hours, and if it goes back to 0, then I can make the conclusion that it is cycled? I imagine I will also monitor my nitrites and nitrates as well. I should see a spike in nitrite next?
If I try this and it my amonia doesnt go to 0 within 24 hours, then what is my next form of action? I will have a tank full of water with high concentrations of amonia. So, do I let it take its course and go through the nitrification cycle?
If I try this and it my amonia doesnt go to 0 within 24 hours, then what is my next form of action? I will have a tank full of water with high concentrations of amonia. So, do I let it take its course and go through the nitrification cycle?
