Do cement and Discus mix?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

ThaBone

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
27
I'm just following some DIY tutorial to create a rock like formation background using styrofoam and cement. I'm almost done with the proyect.

I was wondering if it was safe to have discus on this tank?

The tank where the cement/foam background is going to be installed is a 55Gls one. I plan to add sand as sustrate. I know that the cement and the sand are going to build up the PH parameters so I buyed some driftwood to make a balance.

What's your opinion on this?

Your help is much appreciated.
 
what kind of sand?

How much driftwood is "some"?

i think it will take a lot a wood to "balance" out your ph if you are using ph raising sand.

what is the ph and Kh of your tap water?
 
Cement is primarily limestone, which is primarily CaCO3. This is going to evenutally increase hardness (GH and KH) as well as increase the pH. I would have to go against keeping any fish that require soft, acidic water, as you're going to have a never-ending battle to keep it that way, let alone the cost for the treatments to soften and acidify the water. If you are using plain old sand, then it's made of fine granules of quartz, which is insoluble in water, thus not changing the GH, KH, or pH at all.

I've never kept discus myself, but I'm pretty sure they like soft, acidic water and they are a moderately difficult fish to care for. Someone else can certainly feel free to correct me, if necessary, on that.
 
If you even try to give the discus the soft water they require, you will be met with:

1: Disintegrating, eroding cement from the acid water.

2: Poor rate of success with the discus staying alive.

I have 4 large pieces of bogwood in my tank, and it still barely made a dent in my high Ph... Discus like heavily planted tanks, and they should be so lush that you can't even see the background.

These cement backgrounds are usually made for hard water species, as these species usually dwell around areas filled with rocks like the backgrounds simulate. The benefit being that you don't have to have the ton of rock necessary to get the same look as the styro/cement gives you, usually at a fraction of the cost AND weight.
 
I have not installed the background yet neither filled the tank with water. But the water parameter that I got from the plumb is 7.4. I just wanted to have some advice.

Regarding how much diftwood do I have on the tank. I buyed two driftwood pieces of about a foot long. They came from some kind of amazonic tree root.

The sand I got is from the company Super Naturals. It's super fine unbuffered white sand.

What do you think?
 
If you can set the tank up with fast growing plants with fine leaves, they will help lower the KH.
Some people mix sphagnum moss (organic peat pellets) in with the substrate to help bind up heavy metals and lower the KH. The peat also releases humic/tannic acids that are a natural anti-fungal/anti-bacterial agent. Oh yeah, it also filters the light by discoloring the water; retarding algae growth.

As far as water chemistry is concerned, it can be worked out. As far as suitable environments, the 'crete will not be good. The surface is too rough, and the fish get spooked a lot. (Especially by nocturnal catfish. Limit their numbers.) They will awaken with a start and slam into anything in that given direction. They would stay scarred. Think soft, decaying wood and wide leathery leaves.
 
Why not just cover the background with a water proof sealant? This should prevent the concrete from slowly dissolving in the tank.

As for spooking discus, they are at risk even in completely bare tanks. I let my discus adjust to room lighting before I turn the tank lights on or off. A sudden change in lighting is the only thing I've ever seen startle my discus. They don't even mind the cats pawing the glass.
 
I know that KH and PH can be managed by a lot of things but think of a water change. I'm going to have a hard time trying to mimic the tank water to not impact the fishes at every water change.

This is something that is been bothering me for a while. But since I've been very motivated with the concrete/foam thing I had not much time to think about it until now. It is going to be a shame to throw out of the window my invested time and money in this background. I don't know what to do.

Recently I went to an aquarium and seeing a tank with discus and this type of background was what motivated me to do it. But now I don't know what to do.

Please help!
 
I'm not sure I fully understand your dilemma. I would apply a clear waterproof sealant on all the background surfaces.

Although discus prefer soft slightly acidic water, they adapt well to most water. That is unless you are trying to breed them. Water changes shouldn't be a problem if you do no more than 30% at a time.
 
Is the waterproof sealant the solution to keep away the concrete to buff the water? What about how safe is to use this sealant on a fish tank?
 
I'm sure there are sealants that are aquarium safe.
 
Do anybody here have worked with waterproof sealants? I've heard this is used for making ponds.
 
thaBone,
please go through this thread,
http://ice1forum.suddenlaunch3.com/index.cgi?board=DIY&num=1115002332&action=display&start=30
the author uses Sika Topseal 107 to air-cure (voila!) the background (the best part, eliminates the need for looooong water-cures).

if you have finished the project (layered the styro with cement), i recommend west systems epoxy - http://www.westsystem.com/ to cover it and then, put a layer of playsand over it (to take out the shine).
here's an article using the 2nd product -
http://www.greenstouch.com/articles_background.htm

but in the end, if you want to keep discus - rethink installing the background for them for a number of reasons -
1. discus adapt themselves according to the color of the background. so with a greyish (or algae covered) background, they'd display darker colors.
http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/g...8-backgrounds-tanks.html?highlight=background

2. discus don't need the added buffer from cement - better for malawi or tang cichlids.

3. less space for those roundish goofballs :) to move about. (believe me, they need all of that miserly 12" the 55g's provide)

4. IMO, the kings of the freshwater aquaria doesn't need a background to enhance their glory. (well, that was LAME)
 
The link showing the epoxy is applied over the pink foam, not over the crete. Call any manufacturer of epoxys and they will tell you it will not stand the test of time on top of cement, especially submerged. Unfortunatley, cement by it's very nature resists 99.9% of all topcoats, and that's ABOVE the waterline. West systems epoxy is only a polyester resin, which will not work long term. You would have to use a real epoxy resin, like this one: http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/category.php?bid=2&

SURE you can match the chemestry at water change time. But due to the fact that the cement is being painted on and not troweled on like a real mason would do, the mix must be thin instead of very thick. I don't care how many "painted on" coats you apply, the cement mix will always be weak from the get-go. All desireable strength properties of cement are compromised severely when such a large ratio of water is used in the mix. It will now most definately be attacked by the low Ph, soft, acidic water and will spall, check, crack, flake, chalk, erode, etc. VERY rapidly... unless you apply a "low-slump" mix with a trowel over the first painted on coat, it will lose its integrity fast. This means that it will BE DISSOLVING IN YOUR TANK, right before your eyes, utterly destroying your attempts at water chemestry balancing.

I am not guessing on this, it happened to me. I added a MILD acid used for cleaning excess grout off of ceramic tiles to the water to see what would happen as a test. I brought the water down to about 7.0 ph (started with a ph of about 8.0 in the water the cement was curing in) and within a week I had all this sand on the bottom of my tank that was not present before (it was bare glass before the sand was there). It was all the fine aggregate from the cement mix! The top two out of four painted on cement layers had dissolved away, and only the silica sand from the mix remained, and you could punch right through the cement down to the foam with your fingertip like it was tissue paper in most places! I drained the tank and applied a thicker layer with a trowel wherever I could and am curing it again as we speak (wondering why I even tried this, as that layer is gonna take a long time to cure.. but it looks great). So I am not speculating here, I am telling you the facts of what happens to thin watery cement layers when even neutral ph water hits it. The bare cement will only last as long as the water it is submerged in maintains a high enough ph.

The sika top seal 107 in the above link looks very promising, but is it even sold in the US?

Triazole says it all so eloquently, the reasons to rethink the discuss... I also say scratch the discus idea and go with a hard water, high ph loving species for your custom background tank and relax and enjoy the friuts of your labor...

then get another tank for the discus!
 
thanks for pointing out the gaffe sicklid. it was really dumb of me to suggest west systems epoxy over cement.
 
Theres no doubt WSE would work for a while, I almost used it myself, but further research led me to the product I linked to above. They claim excellent adhesion directly on the crete. Just to let you know, I scraped off my DIY styrofoam background today due to the fact that the cement was just way to fragile for me... I don't think all the folks you see making these backgrounds fully understand the properties of cement. Yeah it looks nice, but it is constantly being attacked and eroding due to the fact that most people "paint it on" runny... Anyone in the construction field would laugh at that. There is almost no strength to it at all. I am curious to hear from people regarding their long term success with cement-only backgrounds. They DEFINATELY can't scrape the algae off of them! I am going for it again, this time the epoxy method coated with sand, no crete. I suggest others really, really research the properties of cement before they take this project lightly.

Has a decision been reached as far as the choice of fish for your tank, tha bone?
 
I have not started to cure the background or installed it yet so I still have options left. I definitely want to keep discus on my tank so may be I'll finish discarding the background. Don't know, may be I'll keep it on my room just to remember how much time and money invested on it LOL.

I can tell you that my background is pretty strong and heavy so I don't think it would tear appart in the water. I'm looking for more information about it. I'm also looking for another 55gls tank so I can install the background on one tank and keep the discus on the other :D

Lets see how it comes.

Here are the links for the pictures of my project as I proceed. The forum is in spanish so excuse me. But at least you can take a look at the pictures

1. http://www.createforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=258&mforum=amepr

2. http://www.createforum.com/phpbb/vi...ostdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&mforum=amepr

3. http://www.createforum.com/phpbb/vi...ostdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&mforum=amepr
 
The pics look great Bone. Wise move not to include discus in a community tank.
 
hmm, for some reason i can't see the pics in my lab - will try to watch them from my home later.
Sicklid, i had a cement background on a 75g mbuna tank for a year before selling the tank. i used Quikrete Hydraulic Water-Stop Instant Plug Cement and put on four coats, and allowed each coat to dry for two-three days. there was no perceptible degradation after a year or so. i have no idea how the present owner is taking care of the tank :). and algae is not a problem at all. if anything the background blends in wonderfully with the rocks when an even coat of green algae covers them all. well of course, if the goal is to highlight the background, then there will be problems with algae.
Thabone, try some other cichlids in the tank with the cement background. believe me, they'll love it.
 
As I said the background is not yet installed so I still have the change to have discus but without the backgroung :(
 
Back
Top Bottom