Do Goldfish Have a Pecking Order?

[Jayjangle]

Hey all. Finally, I have upgraded my aquarium to a 50 gal, and my three fish were comfortably moved in. However, I'm noticing my larger goldfish sort of picking on the newest fish. He will chase him and nudge him around, but doesn't nip at his sides or anything.

It reminds me a lot of pecking order behavior, as I have observed similar behavior with dogs growing up. Which leads me to ask...do goldfish do this sort of thing naturally, or is it due to the move?

My larger goldfish has been in his own tank prior to the move due to aggressive behavior toward my black moor, but I attributed that to the move in which he was tanked with the moor and was certainly anxious. I would call dislike of the Moor on his (or her) part, though the larger goldfish is almost exclusively going after my two month old Oranda, whom he/she was never tanked with.

Is this a normal animal-type hierarchy thing that will even out over time, or is it something I should directly intervene in? Another thing...I have been referring to my older fish as a 'him', but it might be a female, as after a year it hasn't developed head bumps characteristic of male, Might not mean anything...

 

[Cichlid Kid]

Yes goldfish do have a pecking order as do alot of fish species. If they are raised together it's not as extreme but in some instances where a solitary fish is raised and then introduced to others the consequences can be quite severe.
Personally i think goldfish have a more complex and intelligent social structure than most fish.

 

[jlk]

Yes, I agree as well especially when fish not raised together are suddenly housed together. Its usually the 'dominant' male who will display the more aggressive behavior towards other fish. Just keep an eye on everybody for now and see if they can work out their issues on their own. If the behavior becomes overly aggressive or causes injury, its best to isolate the offender by either moving him to another tank for a few hours or using a container in the tank to isolate him for a few hours. A pasta colander/spaghetti strainer works well if its not a large fish. I have a plastic slotted laundry type basket I picked up from the dollar store for this purpose (1 ft deep/ 1ft around) that I stick in the top of the tank. Congrats on the tank upgrade!!!

 

[Jayjangle]

Thanks all, sorry it's been so long, havent been using forums much this week.

Anyway, I'm in a small bit of a crisis...well, my tank seems to be. After moving my fish and fixing a lamp a few feet above the aquarium, I noticed ich on my smallest fish- I'm certain that's what it is, since it looks like bright sugar granules are dotted along his fins and body. So, I didn't panic, but ran straight to the pet store to buy some medicine. I got the dissolving tablets and I hope it works; dropped one in according to directions when I got home and it turned the water a lovely shade of blue.

I left my room for a couple of hours to visit with my sister (all the while my aquarium light was off), and I returned to find two fish swimming happily and one (one of the originally healthy ones) at the bottom. I thought "OK", and decided it was probably a good time to feed them since I had only done so once. I put a half cube of frozen mycin shrimp in, and that fish freaked out, swam at top speed along the bottom of the tank, before resting back down. The black moor and my larger fancy did the same after, all looking pooped as they rested. They ate the shrimp but it was alarming.

So here I thought upgrading would eliminate my existing issues, especially since I put the cycled water of my previous two tanks in it (and a little fresh water). It seems like things are going down the gutter and I wouldn't be surprised to wake up to a lost fish soon. What do I do? And assuming the medicine works, how long does it usually take ich to clear up? Thanks.

Before anyone asks: My ammonia levels are in the harmless range (yellow) as of my test this morning, I am using a filter appropriate to my tank size, and no heater or anything. I've got an airstone in it but I'm thinking I should upgrade my pump to use a larger one.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

You know, I was going to start a thread on this very topic, albeit not with the exact same title...

We're experiencing a very similar situation now in our 60 gallon fancy goldie tank, and it has been concerned to the point that we were going to go out today and buy one of those "goldfish starter kits" Petsmart sells just to isolate the troublesome Red Cap Oranda I am going to tell you about now...

We've lost about six goldfish all together at this point and recently, the tank was stocked with just three -- a nicely growing Red Cap Oranda, a chocolate brown/gold forktail and a small, young Black Moor. We introduced two more over the last month or so, another young small Red Cap and a dark orange and black colored comet-loooking young variant; since then, the comet-looking goldie has died and now it's just the young, small Red Cap Oranda with the other established fish. But the Oranda has been really aggressive lately, getting into and under the tails of the older, larger Red Cap and the chocolate brown/gold forktail and nipping at them every time they pass her (sometimes she chases them down) and it's getting progressively worse. She won't seem to leave them alone. She doesn't bother the small Black Moor, believe it or not; she's just interested in nipping at and chasing the two larger fantails in the tank. At this point, I am beginning to suspect this may be a territorial male, even though we "labeled" it as a "her," due to the aggression he/she is showing.

I don't want my established goldies -- who have been with us for two and a half years now -- to be bullied to death by this small Oranda, but I don't know what to do. Should I try isolating it in another tank permanently, or temporarily?

 

[jlk]

Ok, you mentioned ammonia being yellow but how do your nitrites & nitrates look? What type of filter is on this tank? Ok, I dont know what type of ich meds you used but fancies dont always fair well with ich meds and the strange behavior is likely the result of the meds. I also dont know if the meds will have an affect on your good bacteria (some will) either. You will have to consider staying the course with what you are using or completely removing the med and changing your treatment strategy.

 

[jlk]

You know, I was going to start a thread on this very topic, albeit not with the exact same title...

We're experiencing a very similar situation now in our 60 gallon fancy goldie tank, and it has been concerned to the point that we were going to go out today and buy one of those "goldfish starter kits" Petsmart sells just to isolate the troublesome Red Cap Oranda I am going to tell you about now...

We've lost about six goldfish all together at this point and recently, the tank was stocked with just three -- a nicely growing Red Cap Oranda, a chocolate brown/gold forktail and a small, young Black Moor. We introduced two more over the last month or so, another young small Red Cap and a dark orange and black colored comet-loooking young variant; since then, the comet-looking goldie has died and now it's just the young, small Red Cap Oranda with the other established fish. But the Oranda has been really aggressive lately, getting into and under the tails of the older, larger Red Cap and the chocolate brown/gold forktail and nipping at them every time they pass her (sometimes she chases them down) and it's getting progressively worse. She won't seem to leave them alone. She doesn't bother the small Black Moor, believe it or not; she's just interested in nipping at and chasing the two larger fantails in the tank. At this point, I am beginning to suspect this may be a territorial male, even though we "labeled" it as a "her," due to the aggression he/she is showing.

I don't want my established goldies -- who have been with us for two and a half years now -- to be bullied to death by this small Oranda, but I don't know what to do. Should I try isolating it in another tank permanently, or temporarily?

Sounds like you have a male with a two of females. The moor is either not sexually mature yet or is a uninterested male. Males can be very aggressive in their reproductive trysts, to the point of injuring or killing a female. You can try isolating the male in the tank (use a tank divider) or move him to another tank. Or, you can just let things be and nature will take its course.

 

[Bettaluv]

Yes, goldfish do have a natural pecking order that they will usually have to establish. I am also the owner of two guinea pigs, both who were housed seperately. When put together, there was a little fighting, but nothing except a few small nips here and there. This is especially true to goldfish who have never met before. Moving the goldfish to the tank will basically restart the dominance "chain" that your pet goldfish had before. They wil now compete for the extra space, but usually this should even out in a week or so, depending on the goldfish.
Things dont sound too serious right now, but I would definately keep an eye on them until dominance has been established. Sometimes, depending on the fish, some will eventually resort to more physical means of claiming their territory. If there is any serious nipping of the fins, I would try to seperate them for a while, then slowly introduce them back again.
I also find that three tends to be a bad number, for any animal really. One of the biggest fish will team up with the middle-size fish, and they will pick on the smaller fish. In the future, I recommend purchasing fish in multiples of 2

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Sounds like you have a male with a two of females. The moor is either not sexually mature yet or is a uninterested male. Males can be very aggressive in their reproductive trysts, to the point of injuring or killing a female. You can try isolating the male in the tank (use a tank divider) or move him to another tank. Or, you can just let things be and nature will take its course.

...but if I leave things be, there is the risk, even as you say it, of injuring or killing the other larger fish. That is what I want to specifically avoid...

 

[jlk]

Well, all I can offer is to say that hopefully because the male is smaller, his efforts wont be injurious. I can not guarentee this though! If your females are being overly harassed or stressed and/or injured, you will need to seperate him in the tank or into another tank. You can try then reintroducing him after a day or two of cooling his heels and see if this helps. Otherwise, keep an eye on everyone and intervene if you feel its necessary.

 

[Cichlid Kid]

I agree with jlk. Just be vigilant. Your male may settle in and calm down or he may get worse. Each fish is uniquely diffrent and to label a species additude in general just doesn't work sometimes. I've had male bettas that would accept a harem of females with no agressive issues and I've had kuhli loaches that would attack anything other than a kuhli!
You just never know.

 

[Jayjangle]

Ok, you mentioned ammonia being yellow but how do your nitrites & nitrates look? What type of filter is on this tank? Ok, I dont know what type of ich meds you used but fancies dont always fair well with ich meds and the strange behavior is likely the result of the meds. I also dont know if the meds will have an affect on your good bacteria (some will) either. You will have to consider staying the course with what you are using or completely removing the med and changing your treatment strategy.

Hey, thanks for the response. The filter I'm using was one that came with the larger tank I bought. It's an aqueon model that is bigger than the 10 gal one I used in my older tanks; it seems to work and look the same but is bigger. I do not know what the nitrates and nitrite levels are since I only have an ammonia test kit (I would have all this if I could; looking for work and I was lucky to even upgrade my tank).

Assuming ich meds are not good for fancies, what else do I do? I read about aquarium salt working on a 50/50 basis, but given the type of person I am, I always dislike that chance...

One of the posters mentioned that three goldfish is a bad number. While my fish are indeed getting along way better now (the bullying of the small one ended after a day completely), but during feeding time there is still some rough housing; not much more than the dominant fish chasing the smaller ones away, but at times it gets a little rough, especially when I feed them micro shrimps. Would you suggest I possibly add another fish?

 

[jlk]

Honestly, no more fish until you can afford a test kit and another filter. Three fish is just fine!! If what your dealing with is truly ich, I have never had issue treating fancies with aq salt successfully. It needs to be dosed properly, added very gradually and reduced gradually as well after a full course of treatment. Salt is by far the most recommended ich treatment for goldies in addition to being a safe & effective option that they can handle well. If you want to remove the present meds (via big water changes & active carbon for a few hours), I can help advise you using salt.

 

[Jayjangle]

Honestly, no more fish until you can afford a test kit and another filter. Three fish is just fine!! If what your dealing with is truly ich, I have never had issue treating fancies with aq salt successfully. It needs to be dosed properly, added very gradually and reduced gradually as well after a full course of treatment. Salt is by far the most recommended ich treatment for goldies in addition to being a safe & effective option that they can handle well. If you want to remove the present meds (via big water changes & active carbon for a few hours), I can help advise you using salt.

Thanks, are there any tutorials on how to perform aquarium salt treatments? The last thing I want is to put a touch too little in and accidentally kill my freshwater fish. Thanks for your help.

 

[jlk]

Pretty easy although its going to sound complicated! You need a .3% salinity for treatment. Is your tank a 50g or 55g? I can give you exact numbers but I need to know the exact size. If your unsure, measure it and plug the numbers into this calculator & it will give you the exact gallons.

Calculator

 

[Jayjangle]

Hey, it is a 50g. Again, thanks, and I hope it makes sense when I hear it.

 

[jlk]

Thanks! Ok, the most accurate way to measure salt is using a little basic kitchen scale. Walmart carries them for $4. If this is not possible, you will need a kitchen measuring teaspoon or kitchen measuring cup. The dose of salt is 11.4grams per gallon or 2.5 level teaspoons per gallon. For a 50g, this is 570grams/125teaspoons. Via measuring cup, based on API brand salt, 1 level cup is approximately 200grams, so the dose via measuring cup is 2.85 cups. **Please note- if its another brand of salt/size grain (api has very lg grains), this cup measurement is not accurate! I based it on API's salt & my scale. A finegrained salt (small table salt grain size) only weighs 100grams per cup & you would need to adjust accordingly.** Hope this makes sense!

You will need an empty gallon water jug or other large closed container. Fill this 3/4th with tank water & add the salt. Shake until its completely dissolved. Then gradually, gradually add this over a 48hr period of time to tank. 1/2 the container should be in the tank by 24hr mark, rest over next 24hrs. Add the salt solution slowly!

Water changes are recommended every other to every day (depending on levels) with gravel vacs to suck up spores. 50%wcs are the easiest for redosing salt. Premix 1/2 original dose in container of tank water & add this back as you are refilling the tank. If you change a different amount of water, only add back the salt you remove. Maintain the salinity for atleast 2 weeks (or one wk after the last spot is gone). Then gradually reduce the salinity with regular water changes (just dont add back salt with wc). Thats about it! Just make sure you remove any meds first before going the salt route. Dont hesitate to ask if you have any questions!

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Well, we just don't know what to do now; the behavior of the small Red Cap is getting more aggressive, and the other two he/she has been picking on have developed massive, red sore-like formations near the anal cavity, presumably from the constant nipping. I don't think this was a matter of "getting some females interested in impregnation"...

 

[Jayjangle]

Thanks! Ok, the most accurate way to measure salt is using a little basic kitchen scale. Walmart carries them for $4. If this is not possible, you will need a kitchen measuring teaspoon or kitchen measuring cup. The dose of salt is 11.4grams per gallon or 2.5 level teaspoons per gallon. For a 50g, this is 570grams/125teaspoons. Via measuring cup, based on API brand salt, 1 level cup is approximately 200grams, so the dose via measuring cup is 2.85 cups. **Please note- if its another brand of salt/size grain (api has very lg grains), this cup measurement is not accurate! I based it on API's salt & my scale. A finegrained salt (small table salt grain size) only weighs 100grams per cup & you would need to adjust accordingly.** Hope this makes sense!

You will need an empty gallon water jug or other large closed container. Fill this 3/4th with tank water & add the salt. Shake until its completely dissolved. Then gradually, gradually add this over a 48hr period of time to tank. 1/2 the container should be in the tank by 24hr mark, rest over next 24hrs. Add the salt solution slowly!

Water changes are recommended every other to every day (depending on levels) with gravel vacs to suck up spores. 50%wcs are the easiest for redosing salt. Premix 1/2 original dose in container of tank water & add this back as you are refilling the tank. If you change a different amount of water, only add back the salt you remove. Maintain the salinity for atleast 2 weeks (or one wk after the last spot is gone). Then gradually reduce the salinity with regular water changes (just dont add back salt with wc). Thats about it! Just make sure you remove any meds first before going the salt route. Dont hesitate to ask if you have any questions!

Hey there, thanks again. I started the salt therapy an hour ago, according to your calculations and my best judgment. I think, though, the first bit of salt water I added to the tank was a little too much; no one's acting that stressed or different for that matter, but once in a while I notice my black moor flicking across the ground. He did this once in a while anyway before this treatment, but I'm wondering if it's too much to worry about at this point.

Last time I put a coffee cup's worth (about 8-9oz) of the solution in; what is the ideal amount to add at a time? Thanks.

 

[jlk]

I don't think there's a set ideal amount to add at time. Some recommend adding 1/4 solution wait 12hrs add next 1/4 & repeat. I add a bit more gradually- a little bit every 2-3hrs but I always mark the 1/2 way point on solution container so I can figure out how much needs to be added by the 24hr mark. You will need to figure out what works best for your situation. Obviously, most of us are not going to stay up 24/7 to add small amounts of salt nor is everyone able to be home over the course of a day to do this.