Does tobacco smoke bother you in restaurants?

[midiman]

I was a smoker in high school, because, like all smokers believe at first, it was cool. (Why else would a thinking being deliberately inhale the smoke from burning leaves??)

After I didn't need to be cool any more, I did what it took to quit. Quitting isn't easy, but neither is watching someone die from lung cancer. Being "difficult" is not an excuse. People need to take responsibility and make hard choices (of course with the example set by our govt leadership, it's not surpirising that people want everyone to accomodate their wishes, rather than take responsibility for their own actions.)

As for child endangerment... The other day I saw a woman get out of a car with two kids. She had a cigarette in her mouth. Here in NY, it was 8 degrees.

Yes, that's child endangerment, and yes, it SHOULD be a serious charge. What would you say if she had OFFERED her kids cigarettes? It's the same thing. The slap missing from that picture was not from my hand, but from her face!! (Ouch)

And my point about self-centeredness was not exclusively directed on behalf of workers in bars, etc. It was a GENERAL statement about the gall of people who think they somehow have the "right" to blow poisonous smoke into the air whenever they feel like it. As I said, they have as much of a "right" to smoke as I do to light an incense stick. Tell me how they're different, if you don't agree.

My uncle Onofrio, an 82 year old Italian American navy vet, man of few (often earthy) words, and former smoker, who has a lot less need for political correctness than you or I might, has the following response when someone asks if he minds if they smoke:

He says "Do you mind if I fart?" I think that about sums up the difference between what may be a "right" vs what is actually "right" in terms of public behavior.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

As for child endangerment... The other day I saw a woman get out of a car with two kids. She had a cigarette in her mouth. Here in NY, it was 8 degrees.

So, umm, was the child endangerment the cigarette, or her taking the kids out in below freezing with the potential to get in an accident and all freeze to death? Where is the line drawn, who draws that line, Taking kids out on halloween is child endagerment, you could buy candy tht's known safe. Taking the kids to the fair, driving with kids in the car, allowing kids access to a kitchen, owning a loaded gun in your house, owning a dog, having an aquarium (I had a 20 gal fall on my head, 10 stiches later...), etc...

You cannot in one breath say that smoking is child endangerment and not consider all the normal behaviours to be considered the same.

It was a GENERAL statement about the gall of people who think they somehow have the "right" to blow poisonous smoke into the air whenever they feel like it.

Best park your car, it's blowing poisonous smoke into my air. The nerve of some people, using cars that produces carbon monoxide which is "LETHAL IN DOSE" , but you don't have a problem with this, perhaps there is more dangerous things with people who refuse to take the bus, car pool, take a subway to work, heck, even walk to the corner store.. but how dare smokers blow smoke in a private establishment..

 

[midiman]

Be serious!!

Do you really think that the things you mentioned are comparable to smoking inside of a closed car when kids are breathing in the fumes? Throwing in irrelevant side arguments is not the same as attacking the point I'm trying to make. Are you DEFENDING people who smoke in cars with kids?

Would you offer a cigarette to a child? 8O If you did, you'd be endangering that child's health, wouldn't you? Keeping that kid in a closed car while smoking is EXACTLY the same as giving him a cigarette of his own. That's irresponsible, AMAZINGLY selfish, and is child endangerment through a DELIBERATE and AVOIDABLE action on the part of the adult.

Again, it seems that smokers want to share their drug addiction with the rest of us against our will- those of us who've decided not to jeopardize our health by breathing in tar, nicotine and high levels of carbon monoxide from a rolled up tube of burning leaves. Attempting to poison the air of adults who can do something about it is one thing, but kids????

If you wouldn't blow smoke into an airline of your tank, how could you blow it in the face of a child?

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Do you really think that the things you mentioned are comparable to smoking inside of a closed car when kids are breathing in the fumes?

Yes, sitting with your car idling waiting for the kids to come out of school is equally bad (not just for kids), fairs, halloween, going to the beach when a child cannot swim.. they are all "child endangerment through a DELIBERATE and AVOIDABLE action on the part of the adult. "

Let's face it, every action I can think of with a child is a danger to thier health, hot dogs (known to cause cancer in a study), chicken (known to possibly have salmonella)

The enviroment provided by the population makes every day life for a child hazordous. (whether through action or inaction, we know cars produce emissions, yet we still need a hemi, or durango, or excursion, or hummer to take the kids to school or commute to work and not ever put a load in the back cuz you don't want to scratch it)

Next thing you know, smoking will be blamed for the ozone layer (something that is endagering everyone and everything on this planet).

Would you offer HotDogs to children?

 

[midiman]

Are you saying that eating a hotdog is the same as breathing in cigarette smoke? I can't believe you are actually serious, so I have to assume you're pulling my leg.

Subtle humor. I like it.

Of course no serious person who gives a hoot about kids' health would ever be able to justify forcing kids to breathe in second hand smoke.

I guess we'll just have to agree on that.

 

[quarryshark]

People need to take responsibility and make hard choices (of course with the example set by our govt leadership

Bit of a contradiction there.
The bottom line to me.
If the desire it there to public impose smoking bans, or any bans for that matter. It should not be in the hands of government. It should be put on a ballot and let the people decide. Government IMO has too much power these days as it is.
The other factor is that we are talking about places that are PRIVATE property. That is a whole other ballgame to me. We really need to be very careful in areas such as this. (Where is the ACLU when it comes to this kind of of stuff )
We are still a free country and its very easy to fall into a trap where these freedoms are being taken away.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I will post a quote..

This large European study found that if a person ate an average of 2 ounces of processed meat per day (equivalent of a jumbo hot dog) they had a 50% greater chance of developing colorectal cancer than those who ate no preserved meat.

Now, statistics are useless, as discussed, 50% more then what.

but the studies do say something..

"The results linking hot dogs and brain tumors (replicating an earlier study) and the apparent synergism between no vitamins and meat consumption suggest a possible adverse effect of dietary nitrites and nitrosamines.(20)

Peters, et al. studied the relationship between the intake of certain foods and the risk of leukemia in children from birth to age 10 in Los Angeles County between 1980 and 1987. The researchers found that children who ate 12 or more hot dogs per month had approximately nine times the normal risk for developing childhood leukemia. A strong risk for childhood leukemia also existed for those children whose fathers' intake of hot dogs was 12 or more per month. (21) Peters, et al. concluded:

That would make feeding hotdogs to your kids 900% more likely to cause leukemia. yet people still do it at birthday parties.

 

[TomK2]

There is an invisible line that is constantly moving around that defines what is generally acceptable behavior. Moderates identify actions which are definitely, absolutely, and seriously harfmul to all or nearly all children and act upon it. Those far from the middle identify things they don't like and come up with statistics to justify their beliefs. Be grateful you have the liberty to choose what you don't like and raise your kids the way you think best, and let every one else do the same. Do not seek behavior modification through legislation. It is far more effective to modify behavior on a large scale through social customs, since people will voluntarily chage behavior in an attempt to fit in, but won't do it by force. Over time, if your belief is valid, it will prevail. Till then, let everyone live free.

 

[Billsgate]

Good news: I quit smoking today!!!!!!!!!!!!! Haven't touched one since I got up about 9 hours ago. And won't till I go to bed in 5 hours.
I smoked an average of 15 cigs a day.
It's going to be hard, but I'm still doing fine, I have a good motivation, and that's more important then any nicotine patches or placebos.
I know I can do this. And I want to do this. Because it does bother people that you stink. Noone will tell you to your face, but smokers: Ya stink!
And offcourse it's unhealthy. And costly. Guess what I'm going to do with the money I save? That's right, set it aside to buy me things I really want, instead of burning my money away.

An ex-smoker.........

 

[midiman]

Good for you. I hope you succeed. YOu'll be healthier and happier - and so will the people around you (unless you force them to eat hotdogs, I guess, whcih some people believe are more dangerous than being trapped in a car full of smoke).

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Congrats, keep it up, I know quitting is hard

I've never said that hotdogs were worse, you've misinterpreted me on at least 2 occasions so far.

I was simply stating that hotdogs contain chemicals which are known to cause cancer, Never did I imply it was on the same level (nor comparable), my point was, where does the line get drawn? what is acceptable risk with kids? who defines that? why should they have the right? Are they even Parents?

to get back to the point, Who defines what can be done where, why do they have the right to deny others right to make choices? are they even participants in the places they will affect with thier decisions?

At what point are our (all of our) freedoms restricted to a rule book we are given at birth.. since everyone has already dictated what you can or cannot do.

 

[chrism]

Billsgate - smart move, best of luck to you.

I've never tried smoking, so i have no idea how hard it can be to try and give it up. But would it be fair to say that the majority of smokers know its bad for them, know that all there clothes etc stink and know that if they were to quit there are a vast aray of healthy benifits like, being able to taste food properly, becoming fitter etc?

if so, add that along with the fact that there is obviously growing pressure for smoking to be banned then surely there is enough encouragement for smokers to quit?

i was thinking about this earlier... and perhaps i've been looking at it the wrong way round. perhaps it's not down to the government to ban smoking, but for us, the people who believe smoking should be banned, to make more noise. Start petitions and give them to landlords, restaurant owners etc explaining to them how much we, the public, would like this. I dont know, it might work, i guess its possible, but i do feel it's needed on a much larger scale...

i wonder if cigarettes and tobacco had only been discovered today, do you think they'd be legal?

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

vast aray of healthy benifits like, being able to taste food properly

You haven't tried my wifes cooking, this is a survival technique.

 

[chrism]

"why do they have the right to deny others right to make choices?" - i dnt think anybody is denying anybody the right to make choices. what were saying is, we dont want our air polluted with smokers smoke. it is actually the smoker who is causing the problems, by smoking around us, he is taking away our choice to breath clean air, we have no choice about that. apart from to breathe somewhere else. And i still cant see how, when we are not causing any damage to the clean air, we need to suffer or become inconvenienced so to protect our health...

EDIT: You haven't tried my wifes cooking, this is a survival technique LMAO!! haha nice one in that case i probably dnt blame you!

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Chris, the owner of the establishment is denied the right to make a choice, and if I say I don't want my air polluted by commuters would you appreaciate having to walk everywhere because I was offended?

 

[chrism]

i dont own a car. I decided before i left high school that i wasnt going to learn to drive because i didnt want to be part of the problem. (i even tried to talk my rents into getting solar power roof tiles not too long ago)

there has to be some sort of comprimise, i guess it just has to come down to public pressure in the end...

 

[midiman]

Sorry, wizz, but your argument is less than clear. Are you saying that your right to smoke outweighs my right to not have smoke in the air I have to breathe? What gives you more rights than I have?

Are you suggesting that it is OK to have kids inhale second hand smoke because you have the "right" to blow it in their faces? You keep comparing smoke to hot dogs and cold air in the winter. What's your point in bringing those into the argument?

Are you consistent? Are you in favor of a person's right to smoke marijuana is his own home? To drive at whatever speed he wants on the highway? To play loud music in a train car? All of these would follow from your reasoning with respect to smoking, wouldn't they?

Sometimes laws are needed to protect the public at large from people who put their own "rights" ahead of good manners, common courtesy and consideration for others.

 

[PK Tester]

As far as Wizards argument...

Again...How is you rights any greater than mine?

53,000 Non-smokers a year die because of second-hand smoke...

Don't believe me? Check out www.standonline.org

I have bad asthma and smoke can basically stop me from breathing.

I support the ban on smoking in public places...and I believe it will not be long until tobaccoo companies are gone anyhow.

Wizard...the crap about hotdogs...

Are 53,000 people dieing from being around people who eat hot dogs?

No.

I'm forced to be around cigarette smoke...I do not pick to be around it.

 

[millipede]

Billsgate, glad to hear the good news.
I was asked to "take a walk" so to speak as I may have been to invested in this argument. I tried to be polite and civil but there are certain things that I am quite passionate about. I was told I was narrowminded because in my comments there was no gray area. I'm sorry anyone feels that way about anything I've said, but to me there is no gray area with this topic. Smoking is bad. I used the word wrong previously but people are offended when told something they do is wrong, all they hear is that I'm saying they're wrong and it bothers them. That's life in my opinion.
I am going to try my hardest to stay out of the topic though as it is quite frustrating to me. I will say that no one arguing for the sake of smoking has made any sense at all. People start comparing things. Most of the things they've been compared to aren't even comparable. Most(keep in mind I'm saying most) of the things compared have been things that CAN be dangerous(like guns). Not things that absolutely are. Smoking is harmful to people no matter what dose, no matter who it is, and no matter how it's used. And there are no positive uses or side affects of smoking. they're just bad. But everytime I try to make this kind of point people(I'm guessing mostly smokers) start arguing with me. You bring up people's rights, and stuff like hotdogs... some of those things aren't even comparable and even if they were or are, that still doesn't change the fact that smoking is bad. If this was a debate over keeping bettas in 8 ounces of water, and you were telling someone how wrong they were, and believe me, if they were arguing you would tell them flat out that they were wrong, the defense I've gotten from some people here would be like that person saying if keeping bettas in such a bowl is wrong than pet stores shouldn't sell 1 inch oscars to people with ten gallon tanks... That's all I've heard from a lot of people so far.
I think I"ve mentioned it before but people don't want to take responsability for there own actions. People want to feel like they are good people and dont do anything wrong. They don't want to accept that maybe something in their life isn't ok, especially if someone else is telling them that. For those that do smoke, Hey, I still love ya and don't think any less of you... but smoking is still a bad thing for everyone not just some. You can get mad at me for saying so, but I'm sitting here quite calmly typing this only because I care so much about all of you. If we're going to argue over whether or not there should be a ban, or whether or not the government should have a part in that, that's fine. But as far as smoking goes, please, stop trying so hard to justify it by comparing it to other things. It just doesn't make any sense. Smoking in a car with anyone, not just kids, is bad and endangerment. It's actually the same if not worse than giving the kid their own cigarette. Yes, I do believe that should be illegal no matter what kind of penalty there is.
As far as food and stuff goes, that's another completely different topic, has nothing to do with smoking but I will say that I personally believe the government should try harder to keep food healthy and safe for all people. People as a whole are to dumb and trusting to make some of those decisions for themselves. You wave something that looks good, smells good, and tastes good in front of someone chances are they're going to eat it without thinking for a second what's in it. Yes, I do believe that people should be more responsible, but they're not, in general.
People compared smoking to owning guns... WAY different things. guns have the potential to be harmful. Smoking is and always will be harmful to the user and anyone nearby.
Want to compare it to pollution from cars and such, that's fine, those are indeed bad things but not quite the same as smoking. There are plus sides to most of those other things, there's no positive with smoking. cars have a lot of uses. smoking has none. I'm only saying this because other people brought it up... they're not on the same level. Sure, in a perfect world I'd love to do without any technology whatsoever. But of course we're far from that. Someone mentioned abortion. Yes, I totally agree that it is a horrible practice but it still doesn't justify smoking. You can't say because something else is wrong but legal than it's ok if I do this...
People here have used statistics and comparisons amongst other tactics only to avoid the issue of smoking. It is bad, it is harmful. That's all I have to say. That's all I've ever tried to say... You can disagree with me if you want, just don't expect me to listen if you've got anything to say besides something about cigarettes.
I'm sorry if anything I've said has sounded harsh or anyone was offended. But I do believe that I've conducted myself calmly and as politely as possible. I do not believe I've been any more rude or aggressive than anyone else here... eh, what else can I say... Oh yeah, I hope this wasn't tooooooooooooooooo long.

 

[midiman]

It was just long enough. You are absolutely correct. Nice worm, oops I mean work!