EI Dosing Question

[PerfectDepth]

I will research how to do this.

I followed these instructions:
Calibrating Test Kits - for non-Chemists

 

[zer0signal]

I followed these instructions:
Calibrating Test Kits - for non-Chemists

Thanks! I will play with this after work today!

 

[bcarl_10gal]

Here's a good read: Confusion about EI and other myths - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

 

[Brookster123]

Science aside.. i don't dose any kno3 in any of my planted tanks, never have.. i do stock on the heavy side and nitrates are always above 10-15ppm.. none of.my plants show any signs of nitrate deficiency..

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[zer0signal]

Thanks Brook, that makes me feel even more comfortable with Mebbids advice!

 

[PerfectDepth]

Science aside.. i don't dose any kno3 in any of my planted tanks, never have.. i do stock on the heavy side and nitrates are always above 10-15ppm.. none of.my plants show any signs of nitrate deficiency..

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They certainly don't! You're pushing some serious light too. Interesting.. I don't know your wc schedule.. Since I do weekly changes anyway, if I were you I'd at least dose a small amount of kno3. Knowing your nitrates are staying in that range, I say why not just bump no3 back up to the previous level after water changes just as a cushion? Plus you wouldn't have to worry about testing as often. I actually enjoy testing, except the no3 test which I loathe. Ferts are cheap, dose away!


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[Fresh2o]

I mix KNO3 separately (PPS-Pro), have a light to medium stocked tank, medium lighting and dose nitrate maybe 2-3 times a week. Nitrates are usually between 10-20 ppm. When I was dosing daily, nitrates would get out of control (40-80 or more).


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[PerfectDepth]

I mix KNO3 separately (PPS-Pro), have a light to medium stocked tank, medium lighting and dose nitrate maybe 2-3 times a week. Nitrates are usually between 10-20 ppm. When I was dosing daily, nitrates would get out of control (40-80 or more).


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Same here, except I use a modified EI approach and dry dose instead of pre-mixing solutions. My kno3 dosage is very lean, roughly 3 ppm twice weekly (my tap water has some nitrates also).


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[Caliban07]

Why do people assume that the N part in NPK means means nitrate? It means nitrogen, a form of nitrogen.

The plants are probably utilising ammonia in conjunction with nitrate as it becomes available.

If the nitrates where a problem the tank would consistently read 0 and the plants would show deficiencies no?

Op the same thing happened to me. I'm going to start dosing again tonight but I'm going to dose dry rather than mixing in bottles to see if that helps. That way you can just choose not to add any of any fert if it is excessively high rather than mixing more bottles or wasting ferts by pouring them down the drain to pre mix again. That same calculator gives measurements for dry ferts also. You just need a decent set of scales with a .00 resolution.


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[PerfectDepth]

Why do people assume that the N part in NPK means means nitrate? It means nitrogen, a form of nitrogen.

The plants are probably utilising ammonia in conjunction with nitrate as it becomes available.

Absolutely. The uptake of NH4 in a healthy planted tank should be quite high. If this uptake slows down enough (due to PO4 starvation for example), this can even cause an ammonia spike.

If the nitrates where a problem the tank would consistently read 0 and the plants would show deficiencies no?

Not necessarily. The nitrogen cycle could be providing measurable nitrates in the morning, but then they're bottoming out before the end of the photoperiod.

 

[zer0signal]

Op the same thing happened to me. I'm going to start dosing again tonight but I'm going to dose dry rather than mixing in bottles to see if that helps. That way you can just choose not to add any of any fert if it is excessively high rather than mixing more bottles or wasting ferts by pouring them down the drain to pre mix again. That same calculator gives measurements for dry ferts also. You just need a decent set of scales with a .00 resolution.
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Yeah, I am doing to bottle method because of the time to measure out each morning on a scale before work. I guess I could just get my KH2PO4 and K2SO4 in the bottle, and just manually dose KNO3 when needed (if ever).

 

[Caliban07]

Not necessarily. The nitrogen cycle could be providing measurable nitrates in the morning, but then they're bottoming out before the end of the photoperiod.

Well in that case you would see noticeable deficiencies which would lead to a sample being taken at photo period end. Either In my opinion I think nitrates would be lower down on the scale of things to worry about.



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[Caliban07]

Yeah, I am doing to bottle method because of the time to measure out each morning on a scale before work. I guess I could just get my KH2PO4 and K2SO4 in the bottle, and just manually dose KNO3 when needed (if ever).

Sounds like a plan


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[PerfectDepth]

Well in that case you would see noticeable deficiencies which would lead to a sample being taken at photo period end. Either In my opinion I think nitrates would be lower down on the scale of things to worry about.

Right, but the whole point of the EI method is to eliminate deficiencies as a variable completely. With weekly 50% changes, excess is never a problem as long as you're dosing a reasonable amount for your tank (not everyone will need the full EI schedule obviously). Personally, I would much rather dose enough that I can just forget about watching for, and then trying to correct deficiencies altogether. That way, if something is off, there's no guessing. I'll know it's most likely a co2 issue.

 

[Caliban07]

Right, but the whole point of the EI method is to eliminate deficiencies as a variable completely. With weekly 50% changes, excess is never a problem as long as you're dosing a reasonable amount for your tank (not everyone will need the full EI schedule obviously). Personally, I would much rather dose enough that I can just forget about watching for, and then trying to correct deficiencies altogether. That way, if something is off, there's no guessing. I'll know it's most likely a co2 issue.

That's fine I'm not arguing with EI method. Just just trying to tackle the 60-80ppm nitrate dilemma. Since the forum general consensus for nitrates is usually 10-20ppm possible even 40 it seems that is fine when plants are involved. If the plants are obviously using the nitrates then that is not a problem but when they are climbing higher and higher by the week then I'm not so sure.


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[PerfectDepth]

That's fine I'm not arguing with EI method. Just just trying to tackle the 60-80ppm nitrate dilemma. Since the forum general consensus for nitrates is usually 10-20ppm possible even 40 it seems that is fine when plants are involved. If the plants are obviously using the nitrates then that is not a problem but when they are climbing higher and higher by the week then I'm not so sure.

Again, I'm assuming weekly 50% water changes here: Climbing higher and higher by the week only continues to the point at which the amount you're adding becomes equal to the amount being consumed/removed. Once you hit this plateau, it should no longer climb any higher (as long as growth rate remains uninhibited by other factors).

Here's an example of a chart for visual reference, notice how it plateaus close to 20 ppm:

 

[Caliban07]

Again, I'm assuming weekly 50% water changes here: Climbing higher and higher by the week only continues to the point at which the amount you're adding becomes equal to the amount being consumed/removed. Once you hit this plateau, it should no longer climb any higher (as long as growth rate remains uninhibited by other factors).

Here's an example of a chart for visual reference, notice how it plateaus close to 20 ppm:

This is true. I forget to consider the 50% weekly water change. Probably why my reading were climbing so.


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[Mebbid]

Again, I'm assuming weekly 50% water changes here: Climbing higher and higher by the week only continues to the point at which the amount you're adding becomes equal to the amount being consumed/removed. Once you hit this plateau, it should no longer climb any higher (as long as growth rate remains uninhibited by other factors).

Here's an example of a chart for visual reference, notice how it plateaus close to 20 ppm:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that chart seems... useless.

You're assuming that that plants are taking up X amount of the entire total of the available nutrients. If they can't even consume what you're putting in there there's no logical reason to think that they would consume more than that just because you're dosing more.

Look at it this way:
You dose 20ppm of some random nutrient.
The plants consume on average 10ppm of that nutrient between dosings.
Your second dose would raise the concentration up to 30ppm.

Following the chart you posted assuming a 50% uptake the plants would consume 15ppm or the random nutrient.

But if you follow along with what the plants are consuming naturally then they again would consume 10ppm of the nutrient rather than the 50% of the total that the chart predicts. You would be increasing the amount of nutrient every dose until you do a water change.

Theres absolutely no reason to assume that the plants are going to exponentially uptake more and more nutrients.

 

[PerfectDepth]

The upper blue section of the chart shows the results of zero uptake by plants, and 50% weekly water changes.


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[Caliban07]

Can I just ask a question almost related to the ops question since I am using the same chart?

When it says 'to reach your target of 7.5ppm KNO3' in the follow t link I'm assuming that means weekly therefore I would need to split that up perhaps divide by 3 depending on number of doses.

It doesn't mean 7.5ppm per dose right?



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