Emergency!!! Fish Dying

[Balrog]

(Novice) Please give advice ASAP, if possibe! I have a 135 GAL salt tank with Wet/Dry. My lion fish started breathing laboriously on Sunday and he was dead by Tuesday. I did a 30% water change this evening, assuming that there was an ammonia build up... now my golden puffer now has the same symptoms... and he's sinking to the bottom much faster than normal. Ph and Salinity are fine. Could I be low on bacteria? Is there a quick fix to increase O2 levels? Any other suggestions? This guy has been around for over 8 years and I would hate to have my ignorance be the end of him!!!

THANKS!

Mike

 

[reefrunner69]

Do you have test kits to test for ammonia and nitrite?

What size pump is on the filter?

Is there any other water movement?

How long has the tank been set up?

 

[Balrog]

I do not have a kit to test anything other than pH and Salinity. I am not sure how large the pump is (I looked, but didn't see key demarkations) ... but the tank has been around for a few years (I adopted it from a friend). It just has the single pump for movement, but I have 2 air hoses that I can add, if need be.

Also, I took a closer look at him and it looks as if there is some brownish discoloration in his gills ... I have never looked this close, though, and it may always have been there?

 

[reefrunner69]

First thing in the AM, you should get your water tested and purchase test kits so you can test it yourself, there is not alot we can do without knowing more information. It could be many things. Are there any white spots on the fish?

 

[Balrog]

Thanks- I'll do that. Are there any kits that I need to test anything other than nitrates and ammonia?

As far as white spots ... there are some on the puffer, only ... but it looks like it may be part of his coat? I've had him for 3 months and there does not seem to be a noticeable difference ... but, again, I have not looked at him with "examination" in mind to this point.

FYI, the night before the lion died, I was desprate and I put in MelaFix in hopes of medicating him ... he was dead within a few hours, thereafter. I don't know if this could have anything to do with the current problem?

 

[reefrunner69]

Ammonia, nitrite, PH and Nitrate at a bare minimum.

 

[Balrog]

SG = 1.021
pH = 8.2
Nitrate = 10 PPM (per liquid test)/160 PPM??? (per strip test)
Nitrite = .5 PPM
Alkalinity = 300 PPM
Ammonia = .10

Everything seems to look right, aside from the abhorrent strip reading. However, the more I look at the white spots, the more I'm convinced that they are Ich. I introduced the recommended amount of medication (Rid Ich+) to the tank today. The puffer is breathing a bit better, but he still sinks regularly and curls his tail (in pain?) often. He ate well tonight, but again, he does not look good. I've read some posts that recommend a quaranteen... but I'm sure that the water is infected and the other fish will get it (if they don't already have it) regardless, if I don't medicate the water? Is there anything that I can do to expedite his recovery???

 

[fernzpat]

Fresh water dip, guys?

Always been one of my favorites ti kill all kinds of nasties for salt water fish. About 10 minutes in a bowl of fresh (de-clorinated!) water and repeat in a couple of days.

the theory is that salt water microbes and bugs can't take the fresh water and even most sick fish can make it for short periods of time. I have had great sucess with this method when I started my tank.

Anyone second the motion?

-Patrick

 

[steve-s]

the theory is that salt water microbes and bugs can't take the fresh water and even most sick fish can make it for short periods of time. I have had great sucess with this method when I started my tank.

Anyone second the motion?

This honestly would not be an efficient treatment. It must also be preformed very accurately. Not only must the water be prure, it must also be the same temperature and ph to avoid further stressing the animal.

The fish being treated must also be kept in a proper QT environment. If you continually place the fish back into the main aquarium they will continue to become infected. The parasite has many stages of it's life cycle in which only one is on the fish itself. Treating the fish is one thing but to truely be rid of the problem the tank must also be dealt with. The safest way to acheive this is by leaving the tank fallow for a minimum of 4 weeks. Without the fish host, C irritans as well as many other partasitic problems cannot survive.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

Anyone notice that his nitrites are 0.5 ppm? This is not in the acceptable range by any means. Fish breathing fast is also an indication of nitrite poisoning, aye?

 

[kidafius]

I did notice the nitrite readings. You have no LR.......so, how often do you do water changes? How deep is your sand? My guess, and I'm far inferior to the previous posters in experience, is that they are being poisoned by the chemical buildup from their wastes.

What liquid nitrate test did you do? If your dip strip is correct, then you had one hell of an ammonia build up, previously, i think, and they experienced what you would in a closed garage with a running car. If you set the tank up, and didn't use LR or LS, AND you added all of those critters, then you probably just had a 3 month cycle, and the fishies are not taking it well. But, I could be wrong, so, unless I get some more qualified backing, fishfreek-reefrunner69-timbo2-steve-s-hara-hoopsguru-salt4us-and a few others, just use my advice as something to keep in mind, not absolute truth.

If I were you, I would look into some sort of bacterial help, LS, LR or something. HTH. :|

 

[Gauge]

His nitrites were at 0.5ppm, which is unacceptable. His nitates were at 10ppm, which is fine.

Plus, nitrites should never "build up" unless you're cycling the tank or the bioload has recently increased dramatically. According to what I have heard, they attack the hemoglobin in some fashion that basically prevents them from respirating properly, and they suffocate.

 

[Balrog]

You may have hit it on the head ... the tank is very well established, as it has been around for years. However, I just added a emperor angel to the tank, which was too much for the bio (+ puffer, trigger, lion (now dead), wrasse and harlequin tusk in a 135 gallon tank). I did not realize what effect the new addition would have on the eco in an already full environment ... but the more I have read, the more I see how stupid (greedy) it was to add more fish. Three+ months ago, the system was just the puffer, trigger, wrasse and tusk in a healthy bio (before I got the tank). Assuming the puffer gets better, I'm now concerned that the bio won't hold for the remaining fish??? If I got rid of the trigger, would that help a great deal??? That way, I could add live rock to the compliment (trigger will tear up the LR) and hopefully effect a healthier environment. Obviously, I'd prefer to keep the trigger, should it be safe.

 

[Coralena]

Triggers

I'm just a beginner but I've been hanging around our LFS a lot and they have clown triggers in all of their reef tanks (40k+ gallons of it). I'm not sure what kind of trigger you have nor the behavior of other triggers but if you look up your trigger you should be able to find out if he's reef friendly. Also, there is a calculator that shows how many fish you can have in inches......it comes to 1 inch per 5 gallons minus the tails. So in a 135 that would be 27 inches. I hope this helps some, again I'm only a beginner at this so maybe others can comment here =) On a side note live rock and live sand are both neat, you get some great hitchhikers sometimes and the rock helps a lot with filtration from what I know. =)

 

[Balrog]

thanks for the advice... given the size of the fish, I am at capacity right now by those rules. My only concern is that the trigger, tusk and angel are likely to keep growing (I guess that I'll just have to get that custom-made 500 gal tank that I've been eyeing next year! )

 

[Balrog]

O.K. I have my fish in two separate Quarantines with hyposaline setups (1. sick puffer and emperor; 2. tusk, trigger and wrasse). Due to the relative "need for speed" I only had the sponge filters running in the bilge for 24 hours - I hope that was enough to initiate a bio.

A few (hopefully final) questions that I have:

1) My nitrates (120) and nitrites (.5) are still very high in my display tank, even after I did a 30% water change last week (when I saw my puffer laboring for air, I put extra "bacteria starter" in and it has generated a system-wide plume, that I account for the high levels?). So high, in fact, that I had to put 75% new H2O in my QT tanks to get the levels down ... even with that dilution, the nitrates are still high.
a. is there a quick remedy that I may use to neutralize the nitrates in the QT tanks? does it even matter, as I read it is mostly bad for plants?
b. would it be possible to do a 90% water change in the display tank this weekend and still have the bio hold (with no fish for 4 weeks and such a large depletion of bacteria)?

2) Given this opportunity (no fish in tank for 4 weeks), it would be the perfect time to change my substrate. I have enough "Tahitian Moon" black sand to create 2+" of new substrate. If I did this concurrently with the water change, would I be wrecking the bio/environment? Keep in mind, I have no LR/LS in current setting.

3) Even though the fish in the 2nd QT tank show no signs of Ich, I should medicated them at the same levels as the "sick" tank, right?

Any advice would be appreciated. You all have been awesome!!!

Mike

 

[cmor1701d]

Mike,
What are the levels in the QT tanks?
How big are those tanks?
Are you sure about that nitrate reading?
You need to keep a very close eye on those levels. Have lots of fresh SW ready for water changes. I would do a 10 -20 % water change every day to help keep all levels under control. You might want to a 20% change on the main tank and continue that every other day till all your levels are at zero (or Nitrates are down to a reasonable level).

I'm no expert, still a beginner in SW, but the advice I've given should help the situation.

What are you using for filtration in the main tank? A wet/dry?
Removing the current substrate and replacing may have a negligible impact if you have biological filtration elsewhere. With no fish to create ammonia and a running filtration system I would do the substrate swap now. THen keep an eye on the tank parameters. When everything is ok, try adding fish back slowly -- just one or two at a time and keep checking the parameters.

HTH

 

[steve-s]

A few (hopefully final) questions that I have:

1) My nitrates (120) and nitrites (.5) are still very high in my display tank, even after I did a 30% water change last week (when I saw my puffer laboring for air, I put extra "bacteria starter" in and it has generated a system-wide plume, that I account for the high levels?). So high, in fact, that I had to put 75% new H2O in my QT tanks to get the levels down ... even with that dilution, the nitrates are still high.
a. is there a quick remedy that I may use to neutralize the nitrates in the QT tanks? does it even matter, as I read it is mostly bad for plants?

Plants?
Water changes will help but be very sure to match the ph and salinity whe using hyposalinity. You may also wish to keep some Amquel or Prime on hand to help neutralize high levels. Maximum surface aggitation is very important to keep O2 levels optimum.

b. would it be possible to do a 90% water change in the display tank this weekend and still have the bio hold (with no fish for 4 weeks and such a large depletion of bacteria)?

Do small water changes unless you have inverts in the tank (which I doubt), since there are no fish, the nitrifying bacteria should be able to take care of it a bit better. Make sure you add small amounts of food to the tank about twice a week to keep the bacteria fed.

2) Given this opportunity (no fish in tank for 4 weeks), it would be the perfect time to change my substrate. I have enough "Tahitian Moon" black sand to create 2+" of new substrate. If I did this concurrently with the water change, would I be wrecking the bio/environment? Keep in mind, I have no LR/LS in current setting.

If your going to do this, the sooner the better. It will cause the tank to re-cycle. I would also suggest placing a large amount of the substrate into two large micron bags and place it in with the new sand to help seed it faster with the already present bacteria.

3) Even though the fish in the 2nd QT tank show no signs of Ich, I should medicated them at the same levels as the "sick" tank, right?

Most likely they will also be affected and should also be treated.

Cheers
Steve

 

[OUfishman]

Im not really new at this hobby, but still a little inexperienced so take my advice with a grain of salt. By adding LS or LR is should reduce some of your high levels of nitrates and nitrites. They act as filters themselves and they containe bacteria beneficial for the tank. Not sure if these methods are fiscally feasible for you right now, but it may be something you want to consider in order to lower and maintain your tank in the future.

 

[steve-s]

LS containing only bacteria may be of help but do not add LR to the QT. That would be rather pricey as the hypo would kill everything except the bacteria.

Cheers
Steve