Emergency! Sick goldfish.

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Caliban, API has no info at their website we’re searching for. I emailed this to their technical representative. It contains some creative fiction mixed with facts. I’ll let you know what they have to say, if anything.

Saul, I think it’s a good sign they’ve lasted this long. So often sick fish die suddenly. I’m so sorry you’re undergoing such a stressful situation & hope for a positive outcome.


Nice. I like your determination to find answers. I suspect the dosages are large enough to overcome hyper chlorination but times move on and more and more chlorine or chloramines could be being used. The more chloramine the more ammonia is released when the bond breaks. I don’t know how api conditioners tackle ammonia or if they even attempt to. They use EDTA which is a chelate mostly likely used to bind to the heavy metals.
 
1 capful of prime (5ml) treats 4ppm of chlorine or 5ppm chloramine in 200 litres of water. If you have higher levels of water treatment they say to use more water conditioner. Im surprised all water conditioners dont give similar information on precisely how much their products will treat same as seachem do.
 
1 capful of prime (5ml) treats 4ppm of chlorine or 5ppm chloramine in 200 litres of water. If you have higher levels of water treatment they say to use more water conditioner. Im surprised all water conditioners dont give similar information on precisely how much their products will treat same as seachem do.


The other thing is the prime deals with the resultant ammonia when the chloramine bond is broken. I’m not sure other treatments do the same.
 
The other thing is the prime deals with the resultant ammonia when the chloramine bond is broken.

The same dosage treats 1ppm ammonia in 200 litres.

I’m not sure other treatments do the same.

API Aqua Essential says it does all the same things as Prime. Its something ive only recently seen, not sure if its a new product.

https://apifishcare.com/product/aqua-essential


Its cheaper than prime, which is the only reason i use that product (cheapest cost/ water change of products available at my LFS). Next time i get water conditioner ill see if they have it in stock.

Wharf Aquatics if you ever make a trip across the pennines. Well worth a visit.

Edit. Interestingly aqua essential does state how much ammonia, nitrite and nitrate it detoxifies for a given dose, but not how much chlorine it treats.
 
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The same dosage treats 1ppm ammonia in 200 litres.

That’s good to know but with any given amount of chloramine, how do we know how much ammonia is released? Say the water facility adds more chloramine than usual, the ammonia portion goes up too? Could this exceed 1ppm? I assume there is a certain margin for error built in to these products that act as a safety net. There’s definitely some maths here that could be done to determine how much ammonia is left over from a chloramine bond but I suspect the team at seachem will have carefully considered all possibilities.

Edit. Interestingly aqua essential does state how much ammonia, nitrite and nitrate it detoxifies for a given dose, but not how much chlorine it treats.

These are the things that make you worry a bit.
 
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Chlorine to ammonia ratio in chloramine is somewhere between 4 or 5:1. Lets say 4:1 to make things simple for my GCSE maths.

That would make sense of a dose treating 4ppm chlorine or 5ppm chloramine and 1ppm ammonia. 5ppm chloramine would release 4ppm chlorine and 1ppm ammonia when the bond is broken.

4ppm chlorine is the WHO safe dosage level for potable water. So primes dosage is set at a level that most peoples drinking water shouldnt exceed.

Here in the UK water companies aim for chlorine levels not exceeding 1ppm. Mine is about 0.5ppm. I believe chlorination is higher in US, 1 to 2ppm.

Chloramine levels tend to be higher, presumably due to chlorine being diluted down a little due to the ammonia present.

I know my water company, Severn Trent, has some areas treated with chlorine and some chloramine.

I saw or read something years ago where they tested the effectiveness of various water conditioners against their own reported claims of how much chlorine they treated. From memory they all where far more effective than what they claimed (manufacturers margin for error).

They also tested water from a tap with a good aerator attached and that was just as good as a dechlorinator for removing chlorine. Presumably the aerator assisted with off gassing of chlorine. The aerator did nothing for chloramine treated water however. Presumably because chloramine is more stable in the water and doesn't off gas.
 
Yeah I assume the margin for error to be well capable of dealing with any potential issues.

The molecular mass of chloramine is about 51g/mol and ammonia is 17g/mol so it’s more like 3:1 ratio [emoji106]
 
:popcorn:Gentlemen, the ratio of which you speak is 3.375022018 to 1
 
I have seen no change, good or bad.

I have been using bottled water in the temp tank. I now have the water conditioner that I ordered, and Melafix.
 
From API :

Hello (edit). Thanks you for contacting API Technical Services.



Our water conditioners are formulated for the highest legally allowable average chlorine concentration within drinking water. These limits are set by the EPA. We understand that at certain times (burst pipes, etc) the water company may add extra chlorine, above that limit. At those times, we advise to use a double dose of the normal dose of water conditioner. Though it looks like (edit)sits at less than half of the legal upper limit, as published by your water authority:If in doubt – the answer is always validation of chlorine treatment through water testing. (Edit link to my city water department)



Our exact values and quality testing are considered proprietary, I hope I have answered in such a way to give you the information needed to move forward, apologies for the vagueness. Thank

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Comment: Dear API Tech Reps,

I have long used your Freshwater Test Kit and Tap Water Conditioner as well as other API products. They have served me well over the years. I am moving soon to a new location that has a significantly higher chlorine tap water content than my current location. Most people there use bottled water. The chlorine odor is strong and offensive. I am being told the Cl level fluctuates for a variety of reasons.

I need to know the Cl range your tap conditioner can neutralize. Surely the techs have carefully tested the upper limit before one would need to increase the recommended dosage. The fish in my 13 tanks are priceless to me. Please share your range data so I can rest assured your conditioner is adequate for higher Cl levels. No need to simplify the data. I have a doctorate in biology (comparative invertebrate immunology) and have taken several chemistry classes. I will be able to decipher the data.

Respectfully yours, (edit)




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Saul, I think no change may be a good sign at this time & hope improvement comes soon
 
I called the local water department & spoke to a tech. Here’s what he said when I expressed concerns over increased chlorine levels in the water because individuals have lost or had fish made ill by chlorine/chloramine spikes. I tried to take notes, but missed somethings he explained. Very nice man. Bottom line, I have nothing to worry about. Anyone who has concerns should call their municipal water source.

He said my town does not use chloramine to treat water. They mainly use sodium hypochlorite aka bleach, 98% of the time, and chlorine gas ~2%. He said the mandated min is .2 ppm & the max is 4 ppm. He said our water leaves the main treatment center at 1.5-1.7 ppm. From there it goes to 23 pressure districts. The chlorine content degrades along the way & can’t by law go below .2 ppm. They bring it up to 1.5 ppm. He said at 2 ppm his phone rings off the hook, because some people can smell and taste it.

He adds that flushing fire hydrants has nothing to do with increasing the Cl level. Nor are there other situations which necessitate adding more Cl to the system. He stresses this is how our system works and described a different one in a bigger city 100 miles south. They use chloramine and may have an annual spike of 4 ppm. The upper limit, but per API their tap conditioner can handle the US max of 4ppm.

Anyway, I’m not worried about toxic spikes in my water.
 
I called the local water department & spoke to a tech. Here’s what he said when I expressed concerns over increased chlorine levels in the water because individuals have lost or had fish made ill by chlorine/chloramine spikes. I tried to take notes, but missed somethings he explained. Very nice man. Bottom line, I have nothing to worry about. Anyone who has concerns should call their municipal water source.

He said my town does not use chloramine to treat water. They mainly use sodium hypochlorite aka bleach, 98% of the time, and chlorine gas ~2%. He said the mandated min is .2 ppm & the max is 4 ppm. He said our water leaves the main treatment center at 1.5-1.7 ppm. From there it goes to 23 pressure districts. The chlorine content degrades along the way & can’t by law go below .2 ppm. They bring it up to 1.5 ppm. He said at 2 ppm his phone rings off the hook, because some people can smell and taste it.

He adds that flushing fire hydrants has nothing to do with increasing the Cl level. Nor are there other situations which necessitate adding more Cl to the system. He stresses this is how our system works and described a different one in a bigger city 100 miles south. They use chloramine and may have an annual spike of 4 ppm. The upper limit, but per API their tap conditioner can handle the US max of 4ppm.

Anyway, I’m not worried about toxic spikes in my water.


At least you know you can just gas off your water if you want to.

Do you know the conductivity of your source water out of interest?
 
No, I do not know the conductivity. Should I? Fluval says it’s related to GH and can be adjusted by adding deionized water. I do know my tanks are within the acceptable GH range for my fish. I see Amazon has an inexpensive Vivosun pH & TDS pen meter. Do I need one? Do you use them?
 
pH pen not so much. They are too much or a chore to calibrate every time you want to get a measurement but I measure my TDS frequently. I think it’s good to know what the tap baseline is to see how far your tank has drifted over time. They’re not imperative though. If all is looking good then no need to worry so much.
 
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