Excited 11yo and new 10g tank

[weldon]

I'm trying to help my son out with his new tank. I'd appreciate any advice you have for a total beginner.

Our 11 year old got a new 10 gallon fish tank for Christmas from Nana and Papa and Uncle. It's a TopFin 10 gallon freshwater starter kit. We added 15lbs of gravel (no undergravel filter), some fake plants, and a castle (very exciting for the 11yo). We treated the water with aquasafe and added stresszyme to try and jumpstart the cycle. The kit came with a TopFin 10 filter (with a charcoal bag) and a heater. I tried to explain that we needed to wait for the nitrogen cycle to get going in the tank.

That lasted about 4 days and then we had to get some fish.

So we added two leopard danios and let them have the tank to themselves for a week. We used the biocoat dose that came with the kit right before the fish went into the tank. A week later, we did a 25% water change (with some light gravel vacuuming) and then added 2 more danios. Right now we've got all 4 leopard danios hanging out but the tank is only two weeks old.

I haven't been testing every day, but the pH has been locked at 8.0 or so. Nitrites have been zero, Ammonia was .25 with the two fish, but has climbed to .50 two days after the 3rd and 4th fish were added. Nitrates are at 20ppm today. I've been testing the water with Mardel 5-in-1 test strips and Mardel Ammonia test strips.

I'm going to help do a water change right after this post to try and bring these levels down.

Our plan at this point is to wait another two weeks and add a single Dwarf Gourami. Here are my questions...

Do we need to add more leopard danios to make them happy? Do they really need 5 or 6? They seem to zip around all the time (which I guess is normal for Danios) and I don't see them "schooling" per se.

I saw a dwarf cory (bottom dweller) in the LFS today (see I'm learning the lingo already after browsing the newbie forum for an hour or two). Can we add one of those to the tank as well?

Any guidance on how much food to give them? Is one or two "big" flakes enough for each fish to eat each day? We usually break them up and drop in a couple tiny bits at a time so less floats down to the bottom of the tank. Everyone seems to be getting some food, but there is one fish that is definitely more aggressive than the rest.

Any other small fish that do well in singles?

You can see some (really poor) pictures of the tank at http://www.flickr.com/photos/42071162@N00/sets/1786220/

Thanks!

 

[Zagz]

Welcome to AA! It is exciting for an 11yo to get the first tank. First let me suggest that you not add anymore fish until the tank cycles. You will know the tank is cycled when your ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm and nitrates are 10 ppm or so. Be cautious with the test strips, they can be inaccurate. If you are able to, get a liquid reageant test kit like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals master test kit for fresh water. Big Al's online has them for fairly cheap I hear. (I'm in Canada and it is cheaper to get that kit local at lfs.) Aside from declorinator while doing water changes, don't add anything to the tank. They don't help your cycle along anyway and can actually slow your cycle down. Cories are great fish but they are schooling fish and need to be kept in groups of 5 IMO. With 4 danios, the intent to get cories and a gourami you should be pretty well stocked for a 10 gal. You will have to look at dwarf gourami's as the regular gouramis will get too large for a 10 gal tank. The danios might too but honestly I am not as familiar with them so I will not comment.
As for feeding, feed only as much as the fish will eat in a minute. No leftovers.
Good luck and have fun with your tank.

 

[RoK]

Do you have a heater in there? What is the temperature of the tank?

 

[QTOFFER]

Welcome to AA, Weldon!!!

Since you're doing a fishy cycle, you should try to test the water for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate daily, and be ready to do a 10 - 20% water change if the first two readings ever go above 0.25. I would suggest ditching the test strips and getting liquid test kits because they are so much more accurate. When you start seeing nitrates AND the ammonia and nitrites stay 0 for a few days, the tank will be cycled. To keep nitrates at safe levels (below 40 ppm), you'll have to do water changes every one or two weeks - depending upon your bioload.

At this point, I wouldn't worry about pH - nearly all fish do well at most pH ranges. Just don't ever give into the temptation to meddle with the pH using chemicals like pH up/down.

A dwarf gourami would look nice with the danios. Corys prefer to be in groups, and are more fun that way, but I've had a single one in my 58 gal for many months, and he spends alot of time in the open looking for food. A snail or a dwarf bristlenose pleco would make a good bottomdweller too. Just remember that you don't want to exceed 1 inch of fish per gallon.

Keep in mind that in most fish, the stomach isn't much bigger than the eye. That should give you some idea how big a pinch to drop in. When I feed flake, I crumble it up and let it disperse in the current - that way, all fish will have an equal chance of getting some. Feeding a little twice a day is better than feeding alot once a day - this also helps ensure that everybody is getting something to eat.

 

[weldon]

Welcome to AA! It is exciting for an 11yo to get the first tank. First let me suggest that you not add anymore fish until the tank cycles.

Thanks for the welcome. I had to explain about waiting for the cycle before we add fish, and my son is OK with that. It's hard to be patient though. The other challenge is that he would probably just love to get one of everything when some fish seem to do better in schools.

Be cautious with the test strips, they can be inaccurate. If you are able to, get a liquid reageant test kit like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals master test kit for fresh water.

I've read that same recommendation a couple times now so I'll look into that kit at Petsmart. I think their online price was really close to Big Al's anyways and I hear the local stores will match the online price if there is any difference.

You will have to look at dwarf gourami's as the regular gouramis will get too large for a 10 gal tank. The danios might too but honestly I am not as familiar with them so I will not comment.

We were looking at a red dwarf gourami. The sign on the tank said it grew to 2" or 2-1/2". The guy at the store said that they do well in singles too, so I was hoping to just get one of those and then maybe a small group of one more species.

 

[weldon]

Do you have a heater in there? What is the temperature of the tank?

Yes, the kit came with a heater. The temp was at 80* but I dialed it down to about 78*.

 

[weldon]

Welcome to AA, Weldon!!!

Thanks! I'm glad I found this place.

A dwarf gourami would look nice with the danios. Corys prefer to be in groups, and are more fun that way, but I've had a single one in my 58 gal for many months, and he spends alot of time in the open looking for food. A snail or a dwarf bristlenose pleco would make a good bottomdweller too. Just remember that you don't want to exceed 1 inch of fish per gallon.

Thanks for the recommendations. We'll look into those fish together. My son would love to have more fish, but I'm hoping we can do 6 or 7 small ones and not load the tank too much.

Keep in mind that in most fish, the stomach isn't much bigger than the eye. That should give you some idea how big a pinch to drop in. When I feed flake, I crumble it up and let it disperse in the current - that way, all fish will have an equal chance of getting some. Feeding a little twice a day is better than feeding alot once a day - this also helps ensure that everybody is getting something to eat.

We've been feeding once a day (and crumbling up the large flakes as you do) but maybe we'll try doing it twice a day to see how it goes. I think with all the hectic activity in the morning to get ready for school, once a day might be more manageable for us.

 

[bosk1]

The dwarf gourami should do well in there. And you definitely don't want more than one of those (unless you got a male/female pair) in a tank that size.

If you are buying your fish at Petsmart, my advice would be to do your own research before buying anything there. Their information about size and agression is not always correct, and their employees are often misinformed. If you see something you like, it is best to do some online research first to make sure the fish will be compatible with its tankmates (and its tank).

I can appreciate that it is hard for an 11-year-old to be patient. If you do not want to stock slowly, there is a product called Bio-Spira, which is a live bacteria culture. You add it to your tank, and you are instantly cycled. The 1 oz. size is more than enough to cycle your 10 gallon, and should cost around $10. If you go this route, make sure to keep it refrigerated until ready for use, and follow the instructions. You will not be able to find it at Petsmart--you will generally have to go to an aquarium specialty store. And beware of substitutes! There are a couple of products that are essentially the same thing under a different name. Those are fine. But there are also a lot of products that purport to cycle your tank that really do no such thing. Again, I would not trust the people at the store. Do your own research before purchasing.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

To answer your other question about fish schooling, this is what i have found out. I previously had a 10 gal tank with 6 white clouds in it. They are a schooling fish but never schooled in the tank, they just kinda did their own thing. I recently upgraded to a 56 gallon, and now they do school. I read on here, that fish won't school if they can always see each other. In the 56 gallon, they would always stay in a distance which they could see each other, thus they were schooling quite well. HTH

 

[weldon]

Things have been going quite well with the tank. Its been 4 weeks and 3 days since we added the first Leopard Danios. They look to be healthy and strong. Up until a couple days ago, we were doing 50% water changes every day to keep Ammonia below 1.0ppm. The Ammonia seems to have settled down where we don't see it move up much from day to day. I let it go three days until it was up at 1.0 again and did another 50% water change today. I still haven't seen any nitrites though, using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater master test kit.

Can we add ghost shrimp to this tank, or will the Danios or the future Gourami harrass them too much?

Also, I'm a little embarrassed to say that I just found out that my son's Betta should be in a heated tank. He's had it in a coldwater bowl for several months. Should we move it to the tank with the Danios?

 

[bunebop]

Things have been going quite well with the tank. Its been 4 weeks and 3 days since we added the first Leopard Danios. They look to be healthy and strong. Up until a couple days ago, we were doing 50% water changes every day to keep Ammonia below 1.0ppm. The Ammonia seems to have settled down where we don't see it move up much from day to day. I let it go three days until it was up at 1.0 again and did another 50% water change today. I still haven't seen any nitrites though, using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater master test kit.

Can we add ghost shrimp to this tank, or will the Danios or the future Gourami harrass them too much?

Also, I'm a little embarrassed to say that I just found out that my son's Betta should be in a heated tank. He's had it in a coldwater bowl for several months. Should we move it to the tank with the Danios?

I think you should be ok w/ the ghost shrimp. You can also move the betta into there. I've always had danios and bettas together... but then you may want to reconsider the dwarf gourami w/ the betta. they're both air breathers and they tend to be fairly aggressive when it comes to having a territory. Another thing to consider about the dwarf gouramis is that they're fairly delicate (at least in my experience) you definatly want to make sure your tank is well established and everything before getting him and especially since it's a tank for an 11 y/o I'm not sure how he'd handle having the fishy die I dunno. Like I said, those are my experiences w/ dwarf gouramis anyway and you may get different results. I agree w/ doing your own research instead of listening to petsmart. As a former petsmart employee I can vouch that many of them are not the brightest and I just wanted to scream at some of the advice that I heard given out to people and I would usually pull the people aside and tell them that that was really horrible advice and they wouldn't listen to me because since the other person worked there as well they must know what they were doing and they liked their advice better anyway Ok. I'm done ranting. Welcome to AA

 

[jcarlilesiu]

I won't give you any advice as far as the species of fish you have questioned because I don't have experience. I do find it a bit odd though that you arn't seeing any level of nitrite rising after 4 1/2" weeks, and ammonia obviously dropping.

I suppose it is possible to get through a cycle with out seeing nitrites come up to significant levels. What are your nitrAte readings?

 

[weldon]

I might suggest the ghost shrimp to my son just to have something else in the tank. The Danios are pretty busy and it might be nice to have them zip around, the Gourami hanging out in the plants, and the shrimp skittering along the bottom.

I'm a little suprised that I haven't seen Nitrites yet either. I suppose that all those aggressive PWC's (I was doing 50% every day for over a week) might have kept the Nitrites low enough to not show up on the test. Still, I keep expecting to see them shoot up any day now. It seems like the Ammonia growth has leveled off but it is still not dropping to zero like it would if there plenty of bacteria to convert it to Nitrites. I'll just keep up with the PWC's until we see the whole cycle of Ammonia-Nitrites-Nitrates.

Also, the advice about Petsmart is well-taken. I've learned enough the last few weeks that my BS detecter is always on. I've found a few employees at the local Petsmart that know what they are talking about and there a couple that don't have a clue.

 

[weldon]

FYI, kudos have been donated to everyone that helped out by posting here. Thanks again!

 

[weldon]

Another week gone by, and still no Nitrites. The Ammonia is consistently moving up to 1.0 ppm every day or second day. I was doing 50% PWC's every day but have started doing them every other day now. I went three days just to see if any Nitrites would show up on the test, but nothing.

I did notice that the water I add to the tank tests out as .25ppm Ammonia after adding Aquasafe dechlorinator. I was expecting zero, but I suppose this is normal? I checked because Ammonia was at 1.0 last night and I did a 50% water change and it was 1.0ppm this morning. I then did a 75% PWC and tested it at 0.5 ppm a few hours after the water change. Nitrates were under 5.0 last night before the 75% PWC.

The fish look really good and seem to behave as if they are healthy (lots of activity, swimming at all levels of the tank, no red in gills, etc.).

I'm going to keep up with the PWC's until the tank is cycled. I'm hoping that will be soon though because it's become quite a chore. As soon as the cycle is finished, then we'll add the Dward Red Gourami and maybe a ghost shrimp or two for fun.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Hi....

Welcome to AA....

As for the amount to feed, twice a day would probably be better, and crush the flakes like suggested. I do my feedings first thing in the morning, then evening around dinner time. I'm sure you can find time to do this, look maybe at breakfast and dinner. Then on my days off, I'll do a couple extra small feedings during the day as a treat.

The fire red dwarf gouramis are great. That would go good with your setup. I have 2 in my 26G, but one had an accident and rocketed to the surface and hit the hood hard. For the last week or so, he's been swimming really funny. Today's been worse, spending a lot of time upside-down, then turns over and swims more and turns to his side. So I might be down to 1 here shortly.

Another smaller fish that's cool if you are wanting one more species is cherry barbs. They stay small too.

As for adding fish, wait til your tank cycles. The more fish you add, the parameters are going to get out of tolerance much, much quicker. Then when it has completed it's cycle, generally 6-8 weeks, sometimes less, you can get more fish. Just don't add more than 3 fish per week, that way you don't trigger a mini-cycle because of too much bio-load.

 

[Elmware]

I have the same kit. I bought it at PetsMart, and it comes with almost everything you need to get started except the rocks, water and fish. Well, it doesn't come with things for maintenance like a gravel vac either.

IMO, you should have waited two weeks before getting a fish, but I can also understand an 11 y/o being impatient as well. I bought the same tank for my neice and nephiew as well for Christmas, and they did wait the full two weeks. Yes they were excited, but they did wait.

If you haven't watched the video tape which comes with the kit, I would recommend watching it. If you don't have a VCR, try viewing it at a public library.

I don't know what carbons are compatible with the TopFin-10 filters, but I believe TopFin is a PetsMart brand just like when you walk into a Safeway and you see products branded "Safeway Select." The Tetra Whisper Bio-Bags look kinda simular but I don't know if they are compatible.

 

[weldon]

IMO, you should have waited two weeks before getting a fish, but I can also understand an 11 y/o being impatient as well. I bought the same tank for my neice and nephiew as well for Christmas, and they did wait the full two weeks. Yes they were excited, but they did wait.

Why? From what I understand now, the cycle won't start until Ammonia is present in the tank. If I had known then what I know now, I could've done a fishless cycle, but that still would've taken more than two weeks. From what I can tell, waiting two days did nothing except to confirm that the filter was still running and the temperature was stable.

If you haven't watched the video tape which comes with the kit, I would recommend watching it. If you don't have a VCR, try viewing it at a public library.

I'll do that. I'm curious to see what they recommend after getting more of an education on these forums.

I don't know what carbons are compatible with the TopFin-10 filters, but I believe TopFin is a PetsMart brand just like when you walk into a Safeway and you see products branded "Safeway Select." The Tetra Whisper Bio-Bags look kinda simular but I don't know if they are compatible.

I think you are right about Top Fin being a store brand. The Top Fin filters appear to be repackaged Whisper filters. I opened up a box of Whisper filter bags at the store and saw that they are identical to the Top Fin filter bags. I'm not sure I'm going to replace the carbon media. I thought I was just use the filter floss / polyester batting stuff to provide more surface area for bacteria to grow in the filter media packet.

 

[cJw]

Greets, Weldon! Welcome to AA!

From my understanding, carbon filtration bags/cartridges are generally used to remove trace elements and/or medications from the water, as well as clear up discoloration. If you don't have meds or discoloration, you don't need to use a carbon filter.

Confirmation, other addicts?

 

[rich311k]

There is no reason to use AC in a filter unless you are removing medications or tannins etc. AC also only is effective for two weeks or so. You can just leave the old stuff in the filter it does have a lot of surface area for bacterial growth.