Excited 11yo and new 10g tank

[cJw]

There is no reason to use AC in a filter unless you are removing medications or tannins etc. AC also only is effective for two weeks or so. You can just leave the old stuff in the filter it does have a lot of surface area for bacterial growth.

I just had a reusable particulate filter cartridge special ordered @ my lfs, to replace the (old) AC one that I have in my Emporer 280 currently. I'm hoping to have two particulate cartridges (with polyfill) and no AC filter at all, since I can't stand 'floaties'.

 

[weldon]

Another update...

It's been 45 days since we added the first Leopard Danios. I have not done any PWC's since last Sunday. Latest readings are...

1.0 Ammonia (has been steady here since Monday, after the last PWC on Sunday)
0.0 Nitrite (steady as well, checked twice over the last week)
5.0 Nitrate (has been steady here since Wednesday, checked twice)

The Ammonia hasn't been going up any, but it's not going down either. I've been avoiding PWC's so I can see if the Ammonia or Nitrates are going up.

From everything I've read about cycling a tank, these readings seem funny. I would expect to see no Ammonia, no Nitrites and the Nitrates climbing if the tank was cycled. I would expect to see Ammonia and Nitrites climbing if the tank was still cycling.

I use the AP freshwater master test kit with the two-part liquid ammonia test.

 

[jsoong]

You are now 6-7 weeks into the cycle & I agree that your readings are funny. There are a few reasons for a stalled cycle, but before we get into that, I would suggest checking your test results. <Not implying any lack of skill in testing on your part, but tests can go bad, & there are confounding factors that will skew test results, so best to do a set of controls.>

First I would test plain tap water. You should read 0/0/0. If you read nitrates, that would mean nitrates in your water, and may account for the nitrate reading of 5.

Next, I would test tap water with a correct dose of your usual dechlor. (ie test the water before you add it to your tank.) Reason for that is that some dechlorinator (most ammonia binder type) may give a false positive with some typre of NH3 test (non-salicylate tests). It is possible that your persistent NH3 of 1 is a test error.

If possible, have a sample of your tank water checked at the lfs to double check your test kit. It is possible that you have a bad NO2/NO3 test. <Happened to me once with a a 3-4 month old test kit .... constant reading of zero ... until it dawn on me to make a control solution of KNO3 & test that. When the test still read zero, I knew it was toast.> And check the expiry date on your test kit, it might have been old.

Once you eliminated test errors, then we'll all need to put on our thinking hats & figure out what is going on.

 

[weldon]

tap water...

1.0 ammonia (chloramines, I think)
0.0 nitrites
5.0 nitrates (I think, I did this a while ago)

After Dechlor (Aquasafe)

0.5 ammonia (again, the chloramines, I believe)

I confirmed the tank test with a Mardel test strip and it read 0.5 ammonia. The AP test kit shows closer to 1.0 ammonia. We have four leopard danios (pretty small ones) in there now and feed them pretty conservatively, but I would expect them to generate more ammonia than this.

 

[jsoong]

Strange results - FAIK, chloramines should not show up in the NH3 test (it did not on mine). Something is screwy with your water or test - might want to start a new thread with your tap & tank results for more people to look at & comment on.

Your nitrate is suspect as well. Denver is not known to have nitrates in the tap water, and a quick check of Denver water co web site states NO3 level of 0.25 .... so something is wrong there too.

You might want to test your test with control solutions - use pure distilled water for a zero reading for NH3 & NO3, and make up a solution of household ammonia at say 1 or 2 ppm & see what you get on the NH3 test. If you get some fertilizer around, you can also test your NO3 test as well.

I would think that your fish should be generating enough nitrogenous waste to either raise the NH3, or if the tank is cycled, NO3. The fact that your tank reading is consistently the same as your tap reading suggests a test error.

 

[SolarityBengals]

Chloromines do effect some test kits but not all. They will give you a false reading. My water also tests 1ppm of ammonia. I use the Aquarium Phamaceuticals test kit.

 

[weldon]

I just tested my tap water again today.

Ammonia = 1.0
Nitrites = 0.0
Nitrates = 5.0

Ammonia has gone down after a 25% PWC last night. Nitrites are still zero in the tank. I didn't check nitrates in the tank today, but I'll post again when I do.

 

[jsoong]

I was curious and did some googling on NH3 tests & chloramines. So far, I've found nothing that suggests either Nessler or Salicylate tests will detect the NH4 bounded in chloramine.

I use Hagen liquid test, which FAIK is the same chemical methods as AP's (Nessler). The chloramine level at my tap is 2 (per water co daily report), and it tested out at zero with my kit.

I understand that the Nessler test will give a false positive when you have ammonia binder in the water, so a positive reading after adding dechlor is understandable. But I can't see how we can get a false positive from chloramine. <BTW - the ammonia binding in Amquel, etc only lasts 1-2 days, so the Nessler test is still valid in most tanks - as long as you are not changing water everyday so have a steady supply of fresh binders in the water.>

I don't have the AP kit, so can't directly compare that with the Hagen kit. But I would be interested in what others' result are. So AP owners, how about you all test your tap & compare the results with the chloramine readings? It might be that there is something in the AP test that breaks the chloramine bond & releasing the NH3 in the test tube?

Personally, I would find that an NH3 test that gives a reading of 1 in tap water to be useless. I want my NH4 to be well under 1, even during cycling. With a false positive of 1, I can't tell if there is toxic levels of NH3, nor can I track the cycling process.

 

[Macrosill]

I am kinof in the same boat here as Weldon. I am cycling a 55 fishless. I am getting readings of 1ppm for ammonia, 0 nitrites and under 5 ppm nitrates. It has been like this for over 2 weeks. Ammonia started at zero and gradually rose to 1ppm over the 1st 6 days. Now it seems to have stalled. Ammonia does not go above 1ppm even though the 2 shrimp are still in there. I am also using the AP Freshwater Master test kit. I know the test kit is good because my tap read 0 across the board. I use Stress coat to dechlorinate. Declorinated water test 0, 0 and 0 as it did when I set up the tank 3 weeks ago.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[SolarityBengals]

I don't have the AP kit, so can't directly compare that with the Hagen kit. But I would be interested in what others' result are. So AP owners, how about you all test your tap & compare the results with the chloramine readings? It might be that there is something in the AP test that breaks the chloramine bond & releasing the NH3 in the test tube?

I use AP. Out of the tap Ammonia is 1ppm. If I do a water change and add Prime, I will get an ammonia reading of .5 or .25ppm depending on the amount of water change (when previously would have read 0). I don't know what my chloromine level is but I know that must be whats going on. I won't trust my ammonia test until about 24 hours after a water change.

 

[jsoong]

This is strange ... adding dechlor should break the chloramine bond, releasing ammonia. So one would expect the measured NH3 level to go up, not down after dechlor.

I wonder if there is something in the water (some metal ion, maybe?) that is interfering with the test, and that interference is decreased with Prime as it binds heavy metals.

All of this is just guessing ..... maybe someone should email AP & see what they have to say.

 

[jsoong]

I am kinof in the same boat here as Weldon. I am cycling a 55 fishless. I am getting readings of 1ppm for ammonia, 0 nitrites and under 5 ppm nitrates. It has been like this for over 2 weeks. Ammonia started at zero and gradually rose to 1ppm over the 1st 6 days. Now it seems to have stalled. Ammonia does not go above 1ppm even though the 2 shrimp are still in there. I am also using the AP Freshwater Master test kit. I know the test kit is good because my tap read 0 across the board. I use Stress coat to dechlorinate. Declorinated water test 0, 0 and 0 as it did when I set up the tank 3 weeks ago.

Thanks,
Brian

+

Your readings are not that strange ... compared to Weldon (his is stalled like that for 8 weeks). 2 weeks is just about time for NH3 to fall, so I would guess that your NH3 level stopped rising because you are getting the bacteria established. You might not be seeing nitrites yet as the levels are too low.

2 shrimps might not be enough for a 55 .... Generally, for fishless, one would like to see NH3 in 2-4 range to kick start the bacteria. With lower levels, the cycle will get established, but takes much longer. Someone here did an experiment (was it czcz?) a while back. By keeping NH3/NO2 low/undetectable, he managed to established the cycle in 45 or 50 days.

You might not want to wait that long ..... since you are going fishless, why not add some more ammonia to bump things up a bit?

 

[Macrosill]

jsoong,

Thanks for the reply and the reassurance that things are still going well. I was gettijng worried. I will try your suggestion. I think I may just add some ammonia to raise the level. New shrimp may add a few more days to it.

Brian

 

[Elmware2000]

Why? From what I understand now, the cycle won't start until Ammonia is present in the tank. If I had known then what I know now, I could've done a fishless cycle, but that still would've taken more than two weeks. From what I can tell, waiting two days did nothing except to confirm that the filter was still running and the temperature was stable.

I'm not absolutly sure but I believe it has something to do with letting the bacteria colony in the water conditioners get settled in and multiply.

 

[weldon]

Well things are finally moving.

I was starting to feel like something was wrong with my test results and went out and bought the dwarf red gourami that my son had been waiting for (Tuesday night). I figured that maybe the Ammonia results were false and that the tank had cycled since there were no Nitrites or Nitrates.

Ammonia was back up over 1.0 on Wednesday so I did a 25% water change, thinking that it was pointless.

Checked everything again on Thursday, and had readings of Ammonia 1.0, Nitrites 0, and Nitrates 5.0 (same as always). Today (Saturday) I did the readings again to check if the Gourami was jacking up the Ammonia levels. I got readings of...

Ammonia 1.0
Nitrites .25 !!!!!
Nitrates 5.0

Finally, some Nitrites in the system. At this point I don't know if I'm just now entering the Nitrite phase of the cycle, or if this is a temporary spike after the addition of a new fish. Since Nitrates haven't been going up, maybe we are finally moving into the second phase of the cycle where the bacteria that consume Ammonia to produce Nitrites are becoming established.

I also don't have confidence in my previous Ammonia tests. It's possible that the Ammonia was only present in trace amounts and I was getting a false positive from Chloramine. I was doing 50% PWC's every day for a couple weeks and perhaps I was actually keeping the Ammonia levels too low for the bacteria colony to become established.

We do feed the fish a relatively small amount and the four leopard Danios were likely not producing much waste. The Gourami is a much bigger bodied fish and is likley to produce more waste. Of course, he hasn't eaten anything until I fed them today. Even then he didn't eat much because he is still very skittish and will dart away when my hand approaches the tank to drop the food in. I hope that he will become more comfortable over the next few days. If anything, I figure he will come eat as soon as he gets hungry enough. I'm going to try and feed them smaller amounts two or three times a day instead of just once a day. That might give the Gourami more opportunities to eat.

 

[jsoong]

Well, at least you are seeing something different from your tap readings!

One reason for a stalled cycle is not enough ammonia. It appears that the nitrifying bacteria will not break dormancy unless there is some kind of an ammonia spike. If you have some active bacteria in the system, it is possible to get a cycle without the spike. But if all you have are spores, then a spike appears to be necessary. If your NH3 test was wrong, and you end up keeping the NH3 levels near zero with your diligent PWC's, that might be your problem.

Now that you have NO2, something is moving in the right direction. I would keep an eye on the levels & see what happens next. Keeping fingers crossed that you have now entered phase two of the cycle....

 

[Andyvette]

The Gourami is a much bigger bodied fish and is likley to produce more waste. Of course, he hasn't eaten anything until I fed them today. Even then he didn't eat much because he is still very skittish and will dart away when my hand approaches the tank to drop the food in. I hope that he will become more comfortable over the next few days.

Gouramis are known to eat out of your hand..... he will deff. have to get acclimated. They also like darker colored substrate (like yours), and plenty of hiding spots, as they are shyer. I wouldnt expect him to eat out of your hand though, because the Danios are too active for him to fully relax all the time, but hey... who knows . HTH

 

[jsoong]

I'm not absolutly sure but I believe it has something to do with letting the bacteria colony in the water conditioners get settled in and multiply.

There is no bacteria in water conditioners, and even for products that claims to have nitrifying bacteria, they need an ammonia source to survive, so will be dead before you get them. That's why those products generally will not work. The only source of live bacteria culture is from another aquarium, or with biospira.

Letting the tank sit empty for a few days/weeks to cycle it is one of those old wives' tale that is still getting passed around. Unfortunately that does not work.

 

[weldon]

A quick update:

I tested for Nitrites again on Saturday about 4 hours after I got the .25 reading (I wanted my son to discover the Nitrites when he got home) and the reading was zero. I tested for Nitrates and didn't see any increase (still 5.0).

Today, Nitrites are detectable, but below the .25 level (but definitely above zero). Nitrates are still at 5.0 and Ammonia is still at 1.0.

Also, I read the back of the Aquasafe dechlorinator bottle and it says that it treats chloramines by breaking the bond between the chlorine and ammonia. I assume it binds the chlorine and leaves the ammonia, perhaps in an altered form that is less harmful. I recall reading somewhere that you can still detect this ammonia with the tests but that it is less harmful to fish after being treated by dechlorinator. Does anyone have any more info on this phenomenon?

 

[weldon]

It looks like my cycle is just getting going. I tested today and got the following results...

Ammonia 0.5 (down from Tuesday)
Nitrites 5.0 (way up from Tuesday)
Nitrates 10 (up from Tuesday)

I did a 50% PWC to try and reduce the Nitrite levels. I'll test later tonight to see where they are at and will likely do another 50% PWC tomorrow.

This is the first time that I've seen the Ammonia levels go down on their own without a PWC and also the first time I've seen large amounts of Nitrites. It seems like I stalled the cycle by doing such frequent PWC's during the 3rd and 4th weeks that I had fish in the tank. I thought that I had Ammonia at 1ppm but now it seems like it was a false positive from my tap water and the Aquasafe dechlorinator with my AP test kit. It's been 8 weeks since we added the first 2 leopard danios and I'm just now getting the first real readings on Nitrites. I feel badly for the Gourami that we added last week because he is going to have to suffer through the last stage of the cycle here. I hope that this stage will move along more quickly.

Thanks again to everyone that has contributed to my thread. I'll continue to post updates at least until the cycle is finished. I'm hopeful that all the fish will make it through, but I see the wisdom of doing a fishless cycle now.

I kept a water chemistry log in Excel and it's kinda fun to look at the graphs I have now of the different readings. If I figure out how to export as a jpeg, maybe I'll post on here someday. Actually, I suppose I could do a screenshot and post that. Hmmmm....