Fish died as soon as I put them in the tank

[Hobgob]

@Hobgob
Post 16,
Seems drastic. I couldn't see someone drip aclimating their discus purchased from 7.8 ph to their qt at 6.5 for 5 days.

Also in a planted tank you typically see changes like greater than this through out the day and night...


I read this as, you typically see changes greater than the quoted 6.5/7.8 over 24hrs.

Read the post above this.

 

[threnjen]

Oh I want to be absolutely clear that I believe in drip acclimation. It's the .3 thing per day that I am dubious about. I just don't believe that pH matters THAT much in itself.

 

[Hobgob]

This is a really good discussion that includes some biologists. It's not a "paper" or anything but their conversation was interesting.
pH Shock? [Archive] - Aquaria Central

The same woth my reference they weren't papers by any means just knowledgable keepers.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Nitrogenous waste activity really has no relevance in a cycled aquarium.

PH shock usually refers to new additions with a new biological load and consequent nitrogen. So it does have relevance in all systems. Just because the tank is cycled for current stock it is not cycled for new additions, recovery time is better that is all. You will get a spike, this can be and usually is attributed to "pH shock"

(The science is ever improving in the aquarium field)

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Read the post above this.

I edited my post below the post above the post in the vicinity of the post

 

[Hobgob]

Oh I want to be absolutely clear that I believe in drip acclimation. It's the .3 thing per day that I am dubious about. I just don't believe that pH matters THAT much in itself.

Drip acclimating is the best way but for that length of time.. I doubt it.

 

[Hobgob]

I edited my post below the post above the post in the vicinity of the post

I seen that lol

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Drip acclimating is the best way but for that length of time.. I doubt it.

It isn't possible? Or is it?

Which is why I say qt should be the same as purchase point
(I've already said this).

Then you can adjust or medicate as you see fit. With controlled balanced water. It's easy to swing from a-b. Has more risk that is all.

If your fish comes from saline water, to drip it into fresh water is ridiculous. So you set up a saline tank and adjust slowly. (Works either way) you do it slowly because?

It gives the filter (should be cycled) on the qt time to adjust creating a safe environment for your fish. This means you don't have to fight water all day and night.

My lfs store holds reef fish in hypo salinity to help with nasties, so to transfer you would need to adjust another way, dripping is out of the question. You need a fully operational Death Star!

 

[threnjen]

If your fish comes from saline water, to drip it into fresh water is ridiculous. So you set up a saline tank and adjust slowly. (Works either way) you do it slowly because?

Well in this situation this would be an extreme change in TDS. So I still would not call it pH shock.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Well in this situation this would be an extreme change in TDS. So I still would not call it pH shock.

It was an example point for dripping and is unrelated to the pH shock theory.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Man goes to shop holding yesterday's fresh purchase, dead in a bag. The pH is different from the store. No sorry it's pH shock.

That's an example of pH shock. The cause?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

This is where almost everybody blames the shop.

 

[Hobgob]

I've never once seen a store turn someone away for this. Only if ammonia and nitrites are way out of hand.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I've never once seen a store turn someone away for this. Only if ammonia and nitrites are way out of hand.

The ammonia and nitrates can be safer at certain pH and present no problems in low numbers.

I got refused (briefly) for 0.1 nitrite! I ended up with a replacement after an explanation. Then I got two free fish three months later after suffering further losses. I had a file with photographs and a wealth of indisputable data.

0.1 is negligible. It isn't lethally toxic but should not be apparent.

0 ammonia 0 nitrate.

That was enough.

 

[Hobgob]

That's being turned away for nitrites not ph shock.

 

[threnjen]

Man goes to shop holding yesterday's fresh purchase, dead in a bag. The pH is different from the store. No sorry it's pH shock.

That's an example of pH shock. The cause?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. Are you asking me to suggest another reason for the death? Osmotic shock (TDS shock)

I don't see why is assumed to be pH shock

 

[Caliban07]

I have seen some significance with 0.3 change in ph. I think because of the scale being logarithmic this would be like a 2-3 times change in acidity or alkalinity depending on the direction.

As for the ph. I don't see why you would want to tighten up the numbers in a planted tank.

This ph change during photo periods happen every day and night in every pond, lake, stream, river That contains green life.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Oh I want to be absolutely clear that I believe in drip acclimation. It's the .3 thing per day that I am dubious about. I just don't believe that pH matters THAT much in itself.

Fish need to maintain a constant pH in the blood (so do we)
Bicarbonate ions in blood plasma are the control. (This is a chemical change internally)


Read about carbonic anhydrase.
There is only so much coping mechanism, example, you floating in the ocean, you can regulate body temperature for around an hour, then your body gives up.

Then re confirm that pH does not matter.

PH and the range the fish has evolved over millions of years to cope with, should be matched and kept as stable as possible to reduce the need for this mechanism and in doing so reducing stress and energy use.

Get a rift lake cichlid and put it in some 6.8 water or get some rasboras in some 8.2. I'm sure they will not last long. This will be attributed to the pH.

 

[pip walters]

Interesting discussion here guys. Here comes my spanner into the works.....

The water at my place of work is hard and alkaline.... pH 7.8 to 8.2. When we receive our fish, we do not have 5 hours, let alone 5 days for drip acclimatisation. The water in the bags does not allow for this either as ammonia is often high. If we open the bags for dripping, we lose the remaining oxygen and fish may start gasping, so consequently..... and brace yourselves......... we have to basically open the bags and pour the fish into a net and add them to our tanks. PH shock?..... we do this with cardinal tetras - last week I lost one fish a week after I added them.

We do drip certain fish, but not because of pH. Tiger barbs, tinfoils, rosy barbs, silver dollars and a couple of others seem to go into shock due to adjustment to oxygen levels..... they spin wildly then die quickly with mouths wide open! Addition of tank water to the bags over a period of ten mins or so alleviates this. Other than this, we have few problems adding fish.

OP, if you are still reading, what sympoms or actions.do your fish display once released? Also, are the bags filled with air or oxygen when you buy the fish?

 

[Caliban07]

Fish need to maintain a constant pH in the blood (so do we)

Bicarbonate ions in blood plasma are the control. (This is a chemical change internally)





Read about carbonic anhydrase.

There is only so much coping mechanism, example, you floating in the ocean, you can regulate body temperature for around an hour, then your body gives up.



Then re confirm that pH does not matter.



PH and the range the fish has evolved over millions of years to cope with, should be matched and kept as stable as possible to reduce the need for this mechanism and in doing so reducing stress and energy use.



Get a rift lake cichlid and put it in some 6.8 water or get some rasboras in some 8.2. I'm sure they will not last long. This will be attributed to the pH.

Ph does matter. Drip acclimatisation is very very important and a longer dripping period is undoubtably going to be of more benefit and much more appreciated by the fish.

Out of the tens of thousands of members on this forum I don't think there is going to be a high percentage who drip their new additions for 5 days.